#189 | Endurance In Entrepreneurship – What 10 Years in Business Taught Us

What does it really take to build a business that lasts?

In this special episode, the tables are turned as our team member Sarah Nielson interviews Agile Ideas host and AMO Founder & CEO, Fatimah Abbouchi, reflecting on the highs, lows, and lessons from ten years of building a consulting business dedicated to helping organisations close the strategy execution gap.

From a conversation in a café to leading a consultancy working across transformation, governance, capability, and delivery, Fatimah shares the pivotal moments that shaped both her business and her leadership. Together, they explore why so many organisations struggle to connect strategy with execution, how AMO's thinking has evolved over the past decade, and why sustainable business growth depends just as much on people and culture as it does on process and delivery.

The conversation also goes beyond business strategy into the realities many founders experience but rarely discuss openly. Fatimah reflects on navigating uncertainty, imposter syndrome, burnout, difficult tender losses, and the pressure of leading through challenging periods—all while staying true to the values that shaped the business from day one.

Looking ahead, they discuss what's next for AMO, the growing role of capability-led thinking, AI, partnerships, and why endurance—not perfection—has become one of the most important leadership qualities of all.

Whether you're leading a PMO, growing a business, or navigating your own leadership journey, this episode offers an honest reflection on what it takes to build something meaningful over the long term.

In this episode, we cover:

3:15 How AMO Began
11:40 The Reality of Building a Business
21:05 Burnout, Resilience & Leadership
33:20 Why Strategy Still Fails in Execution
46:15 Looking Ahead: The Next 10 Years

…and more.

🎧 Tune in for an honest conversation about entrepreneurship, leadership, resilience, and the lessons that only time can teach.

Transcript

Welcome And A Mental Health Note

Fatimah Abbouchi 0:00

You're listening to Agile Ideas the Podcast, hosted by Fatimah Abbouchi. For anyone listening out there not having a good day, please know there is help out there. Thank you.

Sarah Nielson 0:12

Hi everyone. Thanks for joining us. I'm sitting here with Fatima Abbouchi. My name is Sarah Nelson. And I will be interviewing Fatimah about her past 10 years in the industry. So what I want to ask you, Fatimah, the first couple of questions will be about your beginning of AMO and your survival. So the first question I'd like to ask you is when you think back to the very beginning of AMO, what do you remember most clearly?

Fatimah Abbouchi 0:53

Well, first of all, thank you. It's so good to um have this opportunity to be interviewed by one of the team. And I will say that having been in AMO now, this being our 10 year, this is a really good opportunity for us to have this conversation. But for those that don't know, I spent the last 20

Founding AMO From A Bank Cafe

Fatimah Abbouchi 1:12

years in this industry, and it was only 10 years ago where when I think back to the beginning of AMO and what prompted me to set out on my own and actually set up this business, was there was a couple of things that factored into it. First of all, I had spent a lot of time thinking about wanting to do something for myself. And I had experienced a number of different setbacks in different organizations. I had experienced bullying and a few other things like that. So I just felt like I wanted to be in a position where I can choose who I work with. That was the sort of underlying desire. Second to that, it was in one of the big four banks where I recall they were about to embark on their sort of agile ways of working transformation. It was very early before a lot of other organizations had thought about that. And as part of that, I remember them then me speaking to one of the very um senior general managers about the fact that this very large organization who spent at the time over a billion dollars on project management was consistently reinventing the wheel in and around governance and project management, portfolio management. And I just found it didn't make sense, it was quite absurd. And I thought there's got to be a better way. And so we were sitting there having the conversation about why the concept of a management office needed to change, and I suggested to him that it needed to be more agile in terms of agility, and so the idea for agile management office was born in an internal cafe at one of the big four banks as I sat there having a conversation about what I could do next. Oh, really? And and that effectively sort of was the starting point. Um, and then when I think back to the key moments that stand out for me, it's not knowing what I was doing, um, which people may lead you to believe that when you go and start a business that you have all the answers, you absolutely don't. Uh also think back to the very first few um months and even years where we would hire a um, or sorry, rent out the free meeting rooms in an office works because we didn't have funding or money to afford renting an office or a nice office like this. Um, and I just remember at the beginning working alone, you know, at my kitchen table, in my little office, and really just believing that something could come of this. And that's that's the power of I guess having the belief behind trying to do something for yourself and tenies on. And we're doing that now. So yeah, I'm really proud of that.

Sarah Nielson 3:55

Oh, I love that. So that's really funny to know that you started AMO at a cafe. I didn't know that, even though I've worked with you for over a year now. Um, but I just um I'm really curious. Like, why did you feel the need for AMO specifically to exist? You mentioned something about needing more agility in the workspace, but can you elaborate on that?

Why PMOs Keep Failing Execution

Fatimah Abbouchi 4:25

Yeah, and look, it's probably worth calling out for those that have been following the journey over the last 10 years that um, or my journey personally for the last 20 years, it has evolved, and and that's absolutely essential. So, in in thinking back to 10 years ago when AMO was born, it was about the same execution failures happening in projects and programs and in the project management office or PMO space for sure. Um, every industry in every country that I had been working with, and at that point it was quite broad. So having seen the same execution failures, having seen the project management office treated as sort of an admin function that just really was there to make project managers look good, which is not what it should have been, and never really is that strategic muscle. The only point where I saw it having that strategic overlay is that the investment management function or the enterprise PMO functions. So I just felt there was a disconnect between what the enterprise functions were doing and what the rest of the PMOs in the organizations were doing. In these really large organizations, there could have been 50, 100, 200 project management officers of all sorts, project level, program level, portfolio level. So for me, 10 years ago, I realized that there was a need to provide more consistency within the organization rather than reinventing the wheel. But then as I've evolved over the last 10 years and AMO has grown and has expanded what we focus on, it's now about helping executives to bridge the gap between what the strategy deck says, which we know people spend a lot of money on, and what actually gets delivered. And a good governance and project function helps to support that. And then I've taken it a step further because as I think more about what's changed for us since 10 years ago to now, I realize that there is an imperative capability gap, not in the functions themselves, like I was seeing 10 years ago, but in the handoffs that actually connect the dots. Um, if you think of think of the challenge I'm describing, you've got all these train carriages and the train is heading in a certain direction, but nobody really spends time to focus on those handoffs. And so I wanted to create a more effective, more agile in terms of agility way of doing things that would support all of projects and programs across the organization. And now we've evolved that to connect the dots to strategy and operations because the whole organization itself is better when they're all um more effectively working together.

Sarah Nielson 7:06

So I I'm really curious. Um would you say you had one specific thing being you know um a material thing? It could be a person, it could be something within yourself, but would you say you had one thing that you really relied on in those early days of AMO?

The Network That Made It Possible

Fatimah Abbouchi 7:29

Um well, honestly, I spent the 10 years prior climbing the corporate ladder and working with all sizes and all industries and different um organizations. Um, but I think the thing that was the most um relied on is my network. So in the journey of starting a business by yourself and not having any experience and actually not realizing for me that the experience I'd garnered in the first 10 years working in the corporate sector and also, you know, experimenting as a small business as well, it was really about the network. Um, the network that I had built, I had people who supported me, people that helped to drive to help build out a website. I had people who provided accounting advice, I had people that helped to give me lessons from their own experiences. I had the I think the positive reinforcement from the work that I'd done with the um clients and stakeholders that I'd worked with when I was a contractor in the previous 10 years, and I was able to effectively create a sort of a supportive circle of people around me, some of which I still absolutely connected to today, that's really helped me to not only drive the business forward by making sure I'm hitting the right things that is necessary for them, but actually working to leverage their insights. I'm always listening and spending time understanding how to do things better. And it's those sort of mentors, if you like, that whether it's across sales, marketing, it's my small business mentor, um, performance leadership, all of these sort of mentors, and even the team themselves, um people like yourself that were involved in the in the early days that really believed in what we had to do. But I would say the network is absolutely probably the thing that is being the most important thing that I've built in my career, um, and it's helped me both in corporate and also as a business owner, also.

Sarah Nielson 9:32

I love that answer. It's um it's so cool to be able to use and rely on people's knowledge and people that you uh either look up to like in a work sense, or it can even be in a more personal sense. Um, but you definitely need that support. It takes a village to start your own business. Okay, so now that you have sort of walked us through um the first couple of years, like the first hardships and the first like the foundation of building AMO, um, I want to dive more into some of those hardships because I can imagine it hasn't been easy. Uh, and especially coming from you know being a consultant and and um or a contractor and working uh 10 years climbing the corporate ladder um and and then going to being your own boss, and you said that you wanted to you know decide on who you who you who you work with, and you know that can sound really glorious, and I think a lot of people can uh have this goal and this dream of one day being your own boss because it sounds so good, you know. Um but what would you say were some of the hardest moments in the first few years?

Grief And The Hardest Test

Fatimah Abbouchi 11:00

The hardest the hardest moments are hard for any business owner. And to be honest, I could sit here and tell you some of the generic things like you know, cash flow and saying no no to work that would have you know paid the bills but not aligned to our brand values, or um the fact that I was trying to build the business and work on and in the business at the same time, not having the right resources around me in terms of uh being able to afford the right people and and having those people help to grow the business. I could say all of that, but one of the things that people know about me is um I'm I'm a big um mental health ambassador, and I'd have to say the hardest experience of my entire life and career would have to be early on in the business, we had an opportunity to pitch a seven-figure deal to one of the big four banks, and I um remember the excitement that I had in that, you know, the the days leading up to it. I was I was heavily pregnant at that time, and I was um traveling interstate and had just done the biggest pitch of my life to a CIO at one of the big four banks, and it went really well. It did go really well, but there was this niggling feeling that day that something wasn't right, and within the 24 hours um after that pitch, I unfortunately um I unfortunately um gave gave birth prematurely and lost my son. And so what they don't tell you in business is that everything that you do has to be balanced around the realness of what happens in life and in those moments, and so even though we end up losing a deal, um, it's losing any deal or any of the other things that were hard moments in business, nothing compares to having to balance the hard moments of life. And so that's why I think it's really important for us to always understand that people are going through um different things that you can't possibly understand. And so again, the the the sort of shining light in that moment was the people around me, my team, um, the client all stepped up and provided the the necessary support to help us get through what was a you know terrible three weeks um after that um after that day. So I just think it's important to share those things because again, when you think about hard things, nothing compares to you know seeing a loved one unwell or losing a loved one. And unfortunately that's just part of life, and it is something that you know I reflect on and and wonder sometimes how how we how we, my family, my husband, and I were able to navigate that um point in time, and it it really wouldn't have been possible without the support that we got from everybody. So that by and far will always be the hardest moment in business.

Sarah Nielson 14:15

Thank you so much for sharing that. Um I can't even begin to imagine how absolutely devastating that must be to lose a child. Um I can't believe that you're still here today after that. Uh and to this year can say that you've you're celebrating the tenth year of your business is um it really proves something about you that you're a very, very strong woman. And with that being said, it's of course, you know, it's okay to take a step back and to um take care of your personal life as well. And I know that you have as well, um, but I can't imagine just like you know having to focus on anything else, um, even just like years after something like that happened.

Fatimah Abbouchi 15:13

I appreciate that, and and I think it goes to you know, the common question I get is you know, is there ever a point where you consider stopping? And um that's my next question. Yeah, I I I I I I thought it might be. And um that's a that's a probably a really good example of one of those moments where you think, what why am I doing this? Um the added stress and pressure and complexity and meeting payroll, and you know, still even though the client was really sportive, having to finish delivery of pieces of work, even albeit delay, all of those things are things that um unfortunately you you just you just you just gotta get up and keep going. And so that was a point where I really thought something like this, this traumatic um is even possible to continue doing this thing. Because as I said, nothing else really mattered at that point in time. Um, and it was really uh many, many, many weeks before I sort of could um I guess get get back up and and realize that there is there is things to be done. And um I am pleased to say that um 10 years on my daughter uh is is in her terrible two stage. So um there is a there is a good news story here, and and that is in itself a challenge, but I wouldn't have it any other way. But thank you for asking, and I hope that sharing that story helps anyone who like my peers who are all that uh going through their own challenges, whether they're running a business or not. But I just really think it's one of those things that as a small business, um as any business, but as a small business when you only can rely on yourself, um, that you have to to I guess uh to to live through and and it's those moments where sometimes you don't want to tell anyone and and you want to keep it to yourself, but if if that's me sharing that story helps just one person, um then I'll be I'll be very very um glad that you did.

Sarah Nielson 17:20

That's very that's very big of you, and I think it's very important to share stories like this and to be vocal as you are about um mental health um and sort of like balancing that with being an entrepreneur as well, um, because you can't really just take those sick days as you probably can if you're working now paying people exactly. Yeah, I mean yeah you can, but then there's no business, is there? Exactly. Um so I want to know what was something like in those hardships and um what what was something that kept you going?

Fatimah Abbouchi 18:04

So

Stubbornness Referrals And Momentum

Fatimah Abbouchi 18:05

aside from um that traumatic event, if I think about this many years later, um and I think about from a business perspective the I guess the the key things that kind of motivated me to keep pushing. I'll share a really quick story. So in my family, I I grew up in a in a family of five girls and one boy, and um really traditional background, um, my family comes from, and my my father, a you know, Lebanese migrant, didn't really see um, at least back in his day, any any um females driving manual cars, for example. And I just remember my dad doubting me, my my partner at the time doubting me, and everyone doubting that I could drive a manual car. And the stubbornness that I have in things in just general flows into business. And the stubbornness of not wanting to quit. I recall failing that license test uh four times before actually securing a license because I just refused to get an automatic license and I wanted manual. I know that's not business related, but I think the stubbornness side of it is how I am in business. So um, in addition to being stubborn, um, which is you know can be good and bad, um, the pattern for me is I kept seeing um that most of our work was coming through referrals through the network of people that I'd worked with previously. And that was really um a powerful um motivator to keep going, that they saw something in us, albeit small. They could have picked anyone and they chose us. And so having that support behind us and referring us without even being asked, um, starting to see um the IP that we were developing that um is continuing to evolve, take shape, and realizing that the language and the messaging and the how we operate was working and was resonating and it was evolving and adapting. Um, understanding that you know, beyond me, there is my family and my daughter, and wanting to set them up for you know long-term success and um pave a way for them that provides them the flexibility in you know career choices and their um future ambitions and providing the foundations for that by keeping going and being able to do those things really is going to help that. And then finally, the ability to um work creatively, work with people that I like, do new things, create partnerships with universities, which is why you're here with us today. Um shout out to Old University, shout out to I was university, exactly. I would never, if I'd stayed in the path that I was on, be able to create partnerships with universities or tech providers or upcoming hosting our global annual Primo Leader Conference, um, or build partnerships with people in the US and working across Asia and doing all these things that the curious, creative, behind the scenes, you know, stubborn me is really passionate about. And so I think the curiosity, the problem solving, the positive reinforcement, the ups and the downs, and the desire to build something bigger than me really just keeps giving me the motivator that, yeah, let's keep going. Um, let's go for broke, let's keep going. It's going to be a hard journey, but I always say life's a journey, not a destination. And so um for me it's it's the process and um the love of the process that I that I enjoy. And so I don't think I could be doing anything else, to be honest. Who knows? Maybe one day I'll be, you know, sipping martinis on a beach somewhere if I uh you know make it big, but who knows? Um right now just loving the process and what I'm doing.

Sarah Nielson 22:09

I hope that for you. You definitely deserve it. I think um I think your personality, being uh you know, a daughter of immigrant parents, very traditional, being um you're actually a middle child, which is fame like they're famously known for being um I think very stubborn and bit very um like wanting to prove people wrong. And I can definitely see that having worked for you as well in like for over a year. Um I can I can see that stubbornness in a good way, and you have so many creative ideas, and we're a small team, so sometimes it can be a difficult, um can be a bit difficult to keep up with all of your ideas, but it is uh it is said uh with love because I definitely I admire the the drive you have and the um the way you just keep keep pushing and proving people wrong. And like, yes, you can drive that um manual car because you set your mind to doing so. And I think it's very um it's it's pretty incredible because like knowing knowing you, you're very very professional. Um but with that being said, you can't hide your personality behind your business because it is you know your third baby. Um so I don't know, I just think it's really it's really cool to see how your your background sort of shines through.

Fatimah Abbouchi 23:51

Oh thank you, Sarah. And I'm hoping that through these um opportunities of having you know you you and many others have started as interns with us and then have been blossoming and growing into to where you are today. I I hope that this sort of these opportunities continue to provide um pathways and avenues for yourself and others like you who want to explore you know this world of entrepreneurship and small business and corporate and all those crazy things that we do. And um, and I think we were talking about this. Um, I saw your note on LinkedIn yesterday, and we were talking about the fact that you get the opportunity to be involved in so many things when it's a small business, unlike sort of some of your bigger businesses. And so getting to see sales and marketing and custom relationship management and um business continuity planning and writing strategies and and getting rejection after rejection after rejection, which is something that you it's like a muscle you need to build as well. So um I think it's great. Yeah, great to have that. And I hope the future generations um that you know, I learned I'm standing on the shoulders of giants and have learned from a lot, and I by no means have have anywhere any finished, I have so much to to try to achieve and want to achieve, and I'm hoping that this business continues to provide that that vehicle for that, but um, I'm not wanting to forget those that um you know up and coming as well, because I was given a lot of support and mentorship from many people all the way back to my first job when I was 17, and so I'm hoping to pay back that way with with you know these sort of opportunities and relationships and partnerships that we'll have for life together, like with people like yourself and others that have joined us.

Sarah Nielson 25:35

Yeah, I think it's very beautiful that you're um sort of giving back also to your community by taking on interns as myself, and you know, I only had one course in project management from my masters back home. Um, and now I'm you know helping you out with, as you said, sales and stakeholder management and uh marketing, and that I didn't know anything about, to be fair, before, but now I feel very confident in um in how things are to be run in a small business. Um so I think it's um it's definitely it's been a big opportunity to for me uh to get this chance to get an internship with you and to have work with you um because you've given me so much responsibility as well, um which is just incredible. Um that's and that's something you can't find. Thank you. Something you can't find in a bigger corporation, I think. So I guess one last question about your first couple of years and your uh survival as a new entrepreneur. Um do you have like something funny or something um you know hard or something that you want to share that um happened behind the scenes but that people didn't get to see?

Fatimah Abbouchi 27:08

I

Burnout Stress And Hidden Toll

Fatimah Abbouchi 27:09

think it's so interesting because um the one I don't know the quote, so I'm not going to butcher it, but I'm gonna just try to explain a quote that I have seen. And there's this saying that is something along the lines of you know, you quit working for some 40, you know, 40, 50 hour weeks for someone else so that you can go and work for yourself 80, 90 hour hour weeks. So um it is a bit crazy, seems like it's a bit backward. Uh, but I think what people don't see behind the scenes really is um the toll that it takes when you're running something, especially when you're small and starting and for yourself. Obviously, as your business grows and scales, you get bigger problems and greater challenges. And we've been proactive in trying to make sure our structure can support any growth. Um, but if I'm really transparent again about some of the things you don't see behind the scenes, um, there's the the whole um carrying everything alone, especially if you're a single business owner and you're not, you know, your partnership, not a co you've got no co-founder, there's no safety net. You've still got to meet payroll. There's times where I've had to meet payroll and actually not get paid anything. So there's months where I may not get paid uh anything at all, which is really hard to comprehend because it makes you think, why not just go back and work for someone and get paid? Um, so not getting payslips and getting payment is is definitely devastating. Um, but the other one as well is although you get the flexibility, especially before I had children, uh, more flexibility and less now, uh the toll that it takes on your body. Um, so you know, you obviously need to try to find time to stay active mentally and physically, but sometimes it's the stress builds up, stress lives in your stomach, um in your back, in your headaches, in your shoulders. And one of the things I've seen myself, and then with a lot of um peers of uh peers of mine, is that the stress on the body um is real. And you know, I do a lot of work in the mental health space um with Beyond Blue and other organizations, and um they don't they don't shy away from being very explicit that often the the mental health challenges you're facing show up in the bottom in the body physically, and so people might be constantly sick and they might um you know get constant headaches and there's no other medical reason for it. It's usually anxiety or stress, your body trying to tell you something. Um and and I guess just grounding out the the hard things, something that people won't know is that um I a few years ago before I had my daughter, I um I got burnt out. Um, and I noticed it physically in my body um before I realized that something was wrong, and that really, really um took a toll on me. It it um was physically debilitating, it ended up um creating some other problems which we had to work through as well. But I didn't know what it was until it hit me smack in the face. And I wish I'd paid attention to the physical symptoms I was having in the lead up to that over months, then it crept up on you. So I think people don't see that stuff behind the scenes. They also don't see on the funny side where you um have a guest pull out at the last minute at a big global event and you've got to make something up on the spot, or when you have prepared all your time and energy in the lead up to a really big client conversation, you've flown in to stay and then they cancel at the last minute. Um, or where um, you know, that you it just it's just these little things that add up, but if we don't laugh about those things, we have to cry. And we all need laughter to reduce our stress.

Sarah Nielson 30:55

Yeah, that's uh that's that's very true. And I guess something um I guess it's sadly a lesson that I think a lot of entrepreneurs, they um like it's a reality that they face whether they want it or not, um, because they end out um end up you know having burnout. Um and but I think with you being so um vocal about um mental health and being an ambassador for uh Beyond Blue, um I hope that it can help other people um notice the signs before. And I think on that um what you said about noticing physically um like in your body uh signs that you um were burning out, and you know you've been very vocal about uh living with anxiety as well. I guess something that I struggle with as well is imposter syndrome. And I think uh a lot of people do that, especially juniors, um, because you just you're so green, you you think like it feels like you you don't know what you're doing. Um is that something you have faced imposter syndrome?

Imposter Syndrome In Real Rooms

Sarah Nielson 32:18

Oh, a thousand percent.

Fatimah Abbouchi 32:20

Um I heard someone explain it in a way um that would be better than any way that I could articulate it. But it is something that is so um common and it relates to not having the the confidence in yourself, and so because you're not confident in yourself about whatever it is that you're trying to do, sometimes it feels like you are a bit of an imposter. I still get that in boardrooms and in civil discussions and you know in legal meetings and all the time. I mean, I've been doing this for 20 years and I I still have those moments. I think that to fight against that, one of the things I do remind myself is that I'm doing the work, I'm doing the research, I'm looking to make sure I have as much of the answers as possible. I'm presenting things that I've made sure I really understood and can articulate and not have just chat GPT'd or run through Claude. Um, so I think there's a counterbalance thing, but it comes down to confidence. And over time you build that confidence, especially with lots of um hits and misses. And you know, if you look at just athletes in general as an example, they have so much failure. Um, but at the same time, they still they still have moments where they think they feel like the imposters despite being you know the best basketball player in the world, and so um I think we can counter counterbalance the imposter syndrome by just having more confidence and belief in yourself, yeah.

Sarah Nielson 33:52

And I guess looking at results as well, like having something physical you can prove to yourself, but I did this, I did land this deal, I did you know deliver this project, so I can do it. Um I am capable, I think um that's probably also important. Um but yeah, you're you're definitely I think it you're right, and it's nice to know that even you know, if because like even if you've been in the industry for 20 years, you can still experience those moments. And I think I think that's for me like calming to hear that it's um it's something that everyone can struggle with from time to time. Now

Turning Points Behind The AMO Way

Sarah Nielson 34:39

I would like to ask you, I guess, about the turning points, because now we've talked about how you started, how AMO was created, and some of the hardships, you know, like in personal life and growing a business um you know, as one person. Um so I guess now I want to talk about the turning points. Uh so when did you realize that AMO could um or was becoming something bigger?

Fatimah Abbouchi 35:11

So there's probably a few times where I felt that, but one of the strongest examples of that was, as I mentioned earlier, that a lot of um opportunities came through my network. And so I worked with some executive managers who, when they moved to other organizations, had brought us in. Um, and I won't mention the organization, but it's been one of our biggest customers, and it was in that um environment where the executives internally who were deciding about the structure of their at the time their governance function and the delivery governance function and what they were going to do with it. And we'd made some recommendations and done a bit of a diagnostic, we'd undertaken a number of interviews, we put together a roadmap, and and we effectively helped them post their D-merger, think about how they are going to effectively establish a function that can support projects, governance, portfolio, and all those things. And it was in that um in that engagement early on where the client itself was referring to their function as an AMO, as an agile management office, which is where we started 10 years ago in defining functions and putting the A in what was PMO from a from an agility perspective, but not to change the concept, not to change the the sorry the term, but actually to change the whole concept and flip it on its head for what it does. And I've written a lot about what that is about connecting strategy, delivery, and operations. But hearing a customer saying AMO, AMO, AMO, um and the AMO way, which is our our the model that underpins everything we do, was one of those moments. Another moment, probably prior to that, was I had been working, um uh basically working full-time and then setting the business up on weekends. And through a word-of-mouth referral, we secured our first client um with um no work on our part initially until we had to put a proposal together. And it was when that client signed up to a significant contract, um, and it was a federal government agency, and they said yes quite quickly. I just felt like this was a moment. And so having them say yes from a word of mouth referral for a piece of work that was very significant for their organization, it gave me the green light to leave my role and to you know have permission to effectively go down this journey that has been AMO. So probably say they're maybe the the top two that I can think of. And the last one, I think, for me is that unlike early on, where we were heavily brought in around delivery, the last several sort of four or five years has been heavily skewed towards can you please um provide advice on X, Y, and Z? And usually we're being brought in after other consultancies have been in place. And that's not to say that they they weren't successful, successful, unsuccessful. It's more about again, strategy and strategy decks and strategy papers are one thing. But when it comes to execution, one of the clear lines our clients say is the mechanics of how things work, which goes back to what I mentioned around the connective tissue between the train carriages is the piece that we are really, really strong at. And we've been doing that now, you know, I think 25, 30 different organizations, 16 industries, um, so 20 industries, 16 countries. So we've seen what works, we've seen what doesn't work, and having now, you know, effectively being on call to these clients who are repeated repetitively leveraging us um when they move from company to company is a really positive sign. And for me, I feel like the first contract, the point where the client referenced AMO and the AMO way themselves, and then now what's happening is really helping to shape where I feel like the business direction is going and it made me feel that there is something bigger here.

Sarah Nielson 39:19

Yeah, I I love that. And having seen and having worked with uh the AMO Way model as well, I think it took me nine months to understand it, the model, because you've been you've been working on it for years, right? Developing it, you know, um getting feedback, I imagine, from people you work with, like people in your network as well. Um and but but seeing how it's working now when we're um delivering a project, it's really it is really something it feels special because the strategy behind it is not only you know pinpointing um here's where it goes wrong in the pipeline. It's also you know the the formation process and it's it's also um like implementing the process which is quite rare in this industry, to my knowledge. You s you told me that you started this business alone and that you didn't have any partnerships back then, but I know that you have a couple of partnerships now and have had through the years as well.

Partnerships That Changed The Trajectory

Sarah Nielson 40:31

Um so what was um I guess can you tell us more about the first partnership that changed things or the most significant one?

Fatimah Abbouchi 40:45

So um I think that there have been a few, and I'd say one of the earliest partnerships um was probably the work that we do um with Beyond Blue um in the mental health space, which is the most recognizable mental health brand of any in the world, really. Uh sorry, any in Australia, I should say. Um they're doing some really great work. So it you know, that was the the the first point, non non-business related. But it it meant that a lot of the things that we're doing can help to support and provide the opportunities to continue to volunteer with them. The other partnerships were early on, um, I think one of the strongest was off the back of some of the work that I did when writing uh a piece of um a white paper about if the project management office is actually fit for purpose. And it was something that generated a lot of interest, and um, one of those interests um was both Aarhus University, where they wanted to look at things from a corporate perspective and balance the the theory with the practical. And so we decided to um work together collaboratively, initially to provide real-world experience and advice and practical um practical uh opportunities for um Danish students who were not only working um abroad but also wanting to come and work here in Australia. So the reason that was one of the most significant for us as a business was because we undertook a um pilot program with um Aarhus University, which ended up leading to the Danish education board actually changing the way that they undertook exams. And um that change in the industry, and changing something at that level, I mean you'd know better than me, but is really, really difficult. So our um approach and our program in the international project management arena led to that change. Was one of the most rewarding, significant milestones for us as a business because we leveraged the AMO way with you know, at the time, 30 plus different students that all were effectively helping to um be part of be part of the journey of evolving the concept, and they were then um the recipients of the benefit of the change, which led to you know oral exams and other things like that. So um that'd probably be the second one, and then the third one we through the work that I was doing in the PMO space or project management office space early on, and writing that white piece of white paper, which led to lots of um interviews and some award wins and other things. I actually came across my um I came across a really well respected uh industry leader in this space. Um, and he he's US based. He came to me with a crazy idea and said, Hey, I've got this idea for this community. It's cool, let's call it the PMO leader, let's build something amazing, let's make it free, let's make it driven by the community. And through that process, Partnership with Joe, we have now, we're, I think we're up to our sixth or seventh global conference. Six. Sixth global conference, there you go. And that conference is also underpinned by podcasts and a book series and you know, webinars and all of these amazing things, and all completely run by volunteers, 95% of it. And so that partnership with Joe has led to additional opportunities to work abroad, work with them in the US, but then also to partner with us more locally. So we can support this side of the world where they've got clients that need that sort of help. So there's lots of them. They're probably three of the most sort of prominent ones that come to mind. Um, and they each have had their own benefits and ups and downs and experiences that I I cherish and and continue to enjoy being partners with.

Sarah Nielson 44:56

Yeah, um, yeah, I remember the fifth annual um conference with the PMO leader. That was my first uh project as an intern with you, and doing that with all of the volunteers from all over the world was really, really interesting. Um, and I'm looking forward to see this year's uh conference again. Um and I can tell you that um I was one of the students who had to take that exam that you did, and it was really hard, oral exam, but it was also a really good concept. Like I definitely feel like I learned so much more studying um for that exam. Um yeah, so it it is a it is a good exam, but it's a hard exam. But you did well. And I think that um when you told me that because this actually this partnership with August University actually led to you being a guest uh lecturer, right? Or a guest speaker at uh Auls University back in 2014.

Fatimah Abbouchi 46:02

And actually traveling over there and being in the class with all of all your peers.

Sarah Nielson 46:06

And when you told me that, yeah, it wasn't my peers back then because I was in high school. But when you told me that, I so wish I had um already been been and at university and had had taken that course. Um just because it's so it's inspiring working with you. Um okay. So I think we will um go to the challenges that shaped AMO. Uh the

COVID Tenders And Other Business Tests

Sarah Nielson 46:37

first question being every organization gets tested. What tested AMO?

Fatimah Abbouchi 46:44

So I I talked briefly about the hardest challenge we've had, but uh beyond that, um I think the one that maybe I shouldn't say this word because people are scarred by it, but COVID. Um I think that you know no matter when someone watches and listens to this BS, you know, two decades from now, that the COVID is just not going to go away and we we're always gonna hear about it. So um I think for us there was some some pros and cons in that time, aside from um being uh unwell and and knowing those around us that were unwell and and losing people. The COVID environment um that it created for businesses, small businesses, and service-based businesses and and others as well, it changed things significantly. So, firstly, uh we we obviously were already working quite remote for our clients, so that that was there was no problem there. But as as that point um in the industry and the world started happening, clients just like with AI at the moment, the uncertainty around what they're going to do creates uncertainty and some fear within the businesses, um, especially the small ones. And so having to figure out ways to pivot and assure clients that the work that we were doing at the time would still be valuable and beneficial and could be done remotely, and it was something that we did effectively manage to do with a number of clients. But to say that the team didn't have to be smaller or that the stress of making sure that you continue to meet payroll amplified in that time and also just balancing the fact that you were so far away from your colleagues that you, you know, you work day to day. We had to shut down our office at the time, um, not only financially, but also the the benefit of having an office was just null and void. Um, so I think all of those things really made that time very difficult. On the counter of that, there was opportunities created because it's now opened the pathways to doing remote work and clients don't expect you to be on site all the time for things. So it proved the model that things can be delivered that way. Then there's the pressure of scaling it up again because as you go through that journey, you do scale down and scale back, but to actually have to go the other way, it's really challenging. And so um being flexible about that and not rushing into it was something we had to think about quite heavily as well. We have had um numerous um experiences, not positive ones, um, going through um state and federal government processes to um provide proposals and be part of tender processes that probably are um unfair and unreasonable and skewed towards big business. And so that tested us a lot of the time because we'd invest so heavily and never ever get any feedback from most of them, which is also just disheartening to say the least. Um and then, you know, beyond that, I have had numerous um situations where I've had team members that have either gone through their own um challenges and either needed support, or on the other hand, other on the other hand, have had to let team members go because they didn't align to our culture and values. Um, so there's been so many instances where we've had to be um pretty uh pretty strong. We're we're gonna constantly come across these things, but ultimately it's the tests that actually make you stronger. They say pressure makes diamonds, hey?

Sarah Nielson 50:44

Yeah, that's very true. Speaking of uh pressure makes diamonds, how did that uh all of these tests and um transformations, how did that change the way you lead and what did that period teach you?

Leadership Values Culture And Learning

Fatimah Abbouchi 51:02

Well, it's interesting because there's not like a business school that I attended or anything like that. So I had to sort of learn from those leaders around me. So the the positives and the negatives I watched and observed through people that I had worked with and reported to. One of the things as a small business owner that I thought about early on was I had to try to move away from just being an operator but to an architect, and that architect in the sense of not working just in the business to delivery, which I'm so used to doing, but working on the business. And that's something that people talk about all the time. But as a small business, you also need to be able to be on the tools sometimes to support your team, especially when you are a small team. And so even though I was still trying to balance that um seesaw, I also spent time trying to bring in the right skills to actually support us. So I had some incredible two ICs that helped, second in charge, that helped to support some of that work that enabled me to not just be the only one that was doing the heavy lifting, but actually start to focus on working more on the business. I started factoring in how we can build a model that actually best supports the overall direction that we were trying to take. So being adaptive, being flexible, um always a mental health first company in that I did try to provide and do try to provide support to my team throughout their own um journeys, despite what they may have going on in their lives and being empathetic to that. Um I also um am really open and have been around being flexible with client needs because we know that they change a lot of the time. And also thinking about um not just being empathetic, being adaptive, being flexible, but being proactive as a leader and also continuing to work on those skills. So I have had lots of mentors and um coaching to help support that. I know that I won't get it right all the time, I get it wrong a lot, but just being someone that has like an open door policy and knowing that being there to hear and listen and actually being able to support your team in any ways that's possible has really shaped how we've grown the business and the culture that we're trying to create, not standing for any bullying, um, making sure we're living our values, um, being um being clear on what our North Star is and where we're trying to head to, but also being open to the fact that not everybody is at the same level as well, and we have to we have to work at pace to support those around us that maybe are earlier on in their career as well. So I think it's um there's no apologies for making mistakes, but we just need to continuously live um the values that our our business presents and also going back to my own personal values as well. So um my leadership is changing, it's evolving, I'm learning, I'm going. Um, I watched some really smart, talented people who I had reported into um and took the good from that and tried to inject that into the way that I lead as well. But I'm always learning and evolving.

Sarah Nielson 54:28

That's very insightful. So I'm really curious what is something that AMO stands for today that it didn't fully understand in the beginning.

Fatimah Abbouchi 54:42

So

Closing The Strategy Execution Gap

Fatimah Abbouchi 54:43

what I can say after uh the last 20 years, but 10 years in this business, is that the work that we do is actually showing and teaching people um to see things that they either couldn't see or didn't see before, and in a way that makes sense to them. Whether you want to scale or um start a business or you're a big corporation and you're wondering why there's problems, it's usually because the capability gaps that you have are living in the handoff points that sits between the functions, not the functions necessary themselves. And so execution for me is is the missing layer that helps to hold together strategy delivery and operations. And I think for a long time, operations being you know, your HR, your sales, your all your other non-strategy, non-delivery functions, um, often they're quite neglected. They don't get the project management training or the budgets or any of those things. But they're the ones that have to live and breathe the change that the projects are making before they hand over to them. And so I think the capability piece of connecting the dots that lives in those handoffs between those train carriages, using that example earlier, is the thing that I think resonates the most. And it goes back to what I said before about the mechanics. Clients call us in because they say that the mechanics aren't clear. What they're really talking about is the handoffs that live in between those functions, and so building the AMOA and evolving it and supporting clients in improving the way that they work and teaching them to see things that they can't see and not fixating on a deck, but actually execution and delivering that is something I'm really enjoying because over the last 10 years, having worked with so many organizations and industries, I can see that the pattern is the same, although the context and the environment changes. And so for me, I didn't fully understand at the beginning that this business wasn't going to be a PMO business, a project management office, project focus, poor program focus, but actually a whole of a whole of ecosystem business, a business that does not discriminate between strategy teams, delivery teams, and operation teams. It's someone that sits in the middle that helps to connect the dots so that they can work more effectively. They can not only deliver faster but deliver more effective results, and they can do that when everybody knows what's what's happening, and by showing them what's working and not working, and then helping devise a plan that works for their specific organization is the thing that I get real joy from because seeing them see the outcomes of the work that they are co-designing and contributing to is far more rewarding than just doing the work for them. And so that to me has been um yeah, it's it's I didn't realize we were gonna go down this path until I realized that's what clients actually need.

Sarah Nielson 57:48

Yeah, and I can um I know that you can talk about uh the execution gap forever. Um, and it's something that you're uh very passionate about right now, and I think that people should go to your Substack and read more about that, and you can find uh the link to Fatima's Substack in um the link tree. Um probably down below if you're watching on YouTube. How would you describe AMO's voice today?

Pride Lessons And The Next Decade

Fatimah Abbouchi 58:19

The the clear for me, the clearest it's ever been. So we try not to be the loudest in the room but the clearest. Yes. Um we try to be direct. Um we always say to clients that we're not going to tell them what they want to hear, we're not here to um land and expand, we're here to tell them the truth about what we're seeing, and sometimes that that is painful. Sometimes the um executives we work with are probably not expecting what we say, but we have to be unflinching in the direct direct umness of what we share because in order for us to help them actually see see change and change that sticks, we need to be honest about that. We um we want to make sure that we are remembered for helping to uplift capability for their teams. So we spend a lot of time um to to bring those team members on the journey. We remove all jargon, keep it plain, simple, help them to understand things in black and white, um remove the gray wherever possible, and reflect on the fact that the work that we do and the voice that we try to have in the room is that we've earned our place in that room. We are not um we've earned it, we're not here to perform or or you know pander to what someone wants us to say or do. We're here to be very clear, direct, diagnostic, collaborative, consistent, and communicate well, and that means no jargon.

Sarah Nielson 59:57

Yeah, I love that. So good. It's um yeah, it's it's what this world needs more of, I think. More straight to the chase. So I want to talk uh about the impact. Um, when you think about the last 10 years, what are you most proud of? What am I most proud of? Look, I think you should say yourself.

Fatimah Abbouchi 1:00:26

Um honestly, what am I most proud of over the last 10 years? Well, first of all, first of all, most small businesses don't last past three three years or five years. I don't know what the statistic here is exactly, but I know it's somewhere around that. So probably lasting outlasting COVID and lasting this long. Um I'm actually not proud of any specific engagement, but more the body of work we've created. Um, the IP that we've built has now, you know, life of its own, the AMOA and capability in a box, um, the careers that I've helped to shape along the way. We've had so many graduates, interns, um, and even juniors that we've worked with. And even and even one of the things that really um stands out for me is in a number of client engagements, we've been brought in to help, you know, certain executive or team, and then they've received promotions off the back of the work that we've helped them to deliver. So I can point to numerous examples of that. Um, we're still independent, um, we're still founder-led, um, still after a decade, you know, we don't have any um formal partnerships or co-founders or anything like that, um, which is good and bad. And I'm hoping that, you know, with all the work we're doing, including all of this content and and these engagements and and all these partnerships we're creating, that I can build something that will my daughter one day will see and understand. And and who knows, I I spoke about project management for nine months while I was pregnant, and so she's either going to be the CEO of AMO, she's gonna be super project management and AMO. So um, yeah, um yeah, exactly. We'll see. But I'm honestly just really proud of what um the journey has been and the entire body of work the good, the bad, the acceptance, the accepting of the rejections, the learnings. Um, and honestly, probably I'd say the people that have been instrumental in supporting me and AMO, um, my team, my family, and my husband, and also um most importantly, as well, is our clients because without them we wouldn't exist. So um thank you. I guess this is a good time to say thank you. Um I'm really proud of what we've created, and I'm looking forward to the next 10 years with all of you. Yes.

Sarah Nielson 1:02:52

You're so generous, Fatima, but I think I'm very humble. So I think you should also um be proud of yourself. I hope you're also proud of yourself because AMO also wouldn't exist without you. So very true. Yeah, I hope you can, you don't have to say anything, I just hope you can take it. On this journey you've been on, you know, it's a life journey for you, but for the past like 10 years, AMO's journey. Is there any one story that stays with you till this day?

Fatimah Abbouchi 1:03:30

It's so hard to put it down to one story, um, and you know, to keep a business focused as well. Um I think one of the one of the highlights, let's use a recent example. Um I received an email from a CIO about a couple of weeks ago, and the email was very long and very detailed. And it was from a client who we worked with remotely, who was US-based, that did some, we did some work with. And the work we did with them was about what they thought was introducing an agile project management office, but it ended up being an entire IT restructure where no look no roles were lost. But we helped them reshape and structure their characters and the capability handoffs and the entire function to the point where by doing so it enabled them to um deliver more effectively and actually alleviate a lot of the problems they were having in the broader organization. And this is a scaling organization, one that has um billions of dollars worth of project um investment in the in the slate. And she emailed me out of nowhere with no prompt, and it was a very, very generous email saying that it'd been three, maybe four years since we worked with them, and that they were dusting off some of the work that we did and reinvigorating it. They were representing it to new board members, they had um the C-suite, there was a lot of changes at the C-suite level, and that they were starting to um leverage a lot of the work that we did and put that into place, and that they're eternally grateful for the work we did because it's uh helped them immensely. This exact CIO was not a CIO at the time that we worked together, but actually got promoted off the back of the work that we had helped her to do. Wow. And so to get an email like that three, four years later, it's just so recent that just resonated and just made me um feel really grateful to my team for the work that we delivered, for the opportunity for this client trusting in us as opposed to going for the easy option, which is usually you know our bigger counterparts. And it's those sorts of stories that just remind you that where um what we're doing is meaningful, it has a place, and the capability that we're trying to build. Should outlast us. And that's an exact example of that. So I'd probably say that's one of the most recent stories that I could share. Um, by all means not the only one, but I just thought it'd be probably relevant. It just really lit up my day.

Sarah Nielson 1:06:14

That's so sweet. And talking like talk about strategy and implementing that they're dusting your old work off and implementing it again and introducing it again. Um, is I think that says a lot. You're by no means at the end of this journey, but now that you're 10 years in, is there something you would like to tell yourself if you had a time machine and you could go 10 years back and tell newly started entrepreneur Fatima, what would you say to her?

Fatimah Abbouchi 1:06:47

Oh wow, so many things come through my mind. Yes, and I hope I'm not at the end. Um look, I think if I if I can just go back and tell myself something, I would say to just be prepared, prepared for the no's. Um, it is part of life and part of business, but don't use the no's as a negative. Take the no's as a next opportunity because I think that um there are times where I've received a no and it's because we weren't ready, or we were would not have been able to, you know, support uh a certain thing, or maybe because it wasn't the right partner, or maybe I should have said no earlier and not gone down a certain path myself. So I think just being aware that there is a lot of rejection coming, and it is not a reflection on any one individual, including myself, and that just accepting that that's part of the process, part of the game that we're playing, which is effectively entrepreneurship.

Sarah Nielson 1:07:42

I love that. I was talking to one of my friends recently, and she said this, and I thought it was really clever. She said, uh reject rejection is redirection, and I love that saying, uh, because I think it's so true in so many stages of life. Um, but I think it's uh it's something that I'll definitely write down what you just said and take with me.

Fatimah Abbouchi 1:08:07

I think that's a good one, and and and and someone told me no means next opportunity. So yeah. If someone says no, I just okay, next opportunity. Yeah, good. Good go.

Sarah Nielson 1:08:16

Um if you had to describe the last 10 years in one word, what would it be?

Fatimah Abbouchi 1:08:25

Endurance. Endurance. I think endurance. Um it's not a sprint, it's not a sprint, it's a marathon, and it'll continue to be a marathon. And having endurance physically, mentally, emotionally, um, and even the endurance for the for the structures that you put in place in a business um needs to be there in order to keep going for another 10 years.

Sarah Nielson 1:08:49

So endurance would be my rare. That's good. Um so looking forward, we're now um at the end, almost at the end of the interview. Looking forward uh for the next 10 years. Um what is uh what is something the next decade demands?

Fatimah Abbouchi 1:09:11

I've been thinking about this obviously in the last 10 years as we've evolved. Um, one of the most important parts of the work that we're doing now is productizing all of the IP we've built. Um, I want our IP, the AMO ray model, the capability in a box product, and everything that underpins it. We've built so much IP over the years with all of the experiments we've created and all of the work we've done, and all the partnerships, and all the learnings, and the insights, and the observations we've captured, you know, in the thousands, and all of these things really helping to shape and frame up and really put all of the products and services in a way that clients can then you know surface themselves in in a way that is to continue to uplift their own capabilities. So is a lot of work on that, and also in an AI world where it content is cheap and contents are everywhere and available, independent IP, whether it's you know someone's music tracks or um the way that they facilitate our analog events or or your own IP, be it books, products, etc., are all going to be really important. So um not shying away from that. AI is another big focus, obviously, for us. Um, there's so much opportunity in the place that we play, in the world that we're in, and the space we play with clients. They're already asking us to um look at opportunities for them. One of the things that um we we constantly uh are seeing is that clients need to have the functions and the foundations um in place and the right data in the right spot and the right handoffs and the accountabilities in order to be able to utilize AI effectively. Um I've got some work happening in the background, and it has been for a long time, to write my first book, um, which you know is something that I've been evolving and adding to over years, and so I'm excited about that. Um, and also getting to a point where I can work on the business, not just in the business. And so expanding the the way that we work with partners as well is really um important because what I'm finding is as the world evolves around us, we need to be adaptable, and sometimes you either bring in new skills, you're buying new skills, or you partner with people that know what they're doing. And so we've got some really interesting partnership discussions happening in the pipeline that um continue to evolve our business. So um stay tuned and hopefully we can uh endure another 10 years and see how this journey goes.

Sarah Nielson 1:11:46

I'm sure you can, and I can't wait to read your book. Um I think uh I have one final question, and I would like you to finish this sentence. We're just getting started. Yes, we are. All right, thank you so much, Fatima, for this opportunity of um getting to interview you. It has been very insightful, and as always, I find you so inspiring. And yeah, thank you for taking the time. Great job, Sarah.

Fatimah Abbouchi 1:12:21

Well done. Thank you. Thank

Final Thanks And How To Support

Fatimah Abbouchi 1:12:24

you so much for listening to this podcast. Please share this with someone or rate it if you enjoyed it. Don't forget to follow us on social media and to stay up to date with all things agile ideas. Go to our website, www.agile managementoffice.com. I hope you've been able to learn, feel, or be inspired today. Until next time, what's your agile ideas?