#186 | Accidental Project Manager with Eva Pareja

What happens when a journalist accidentally lands in project management — and discovers the same skills that drive powerful storytelling also drive successful delivery?

In this thoughtful and honest episode, Fatimah is joined by Eva Pareja, Integrated Project Manager, communicator, and multicultural marketing specialist, whose career journey spans journalism, media, advertising, public relations, and nearly 30 years of cross-functional project delivery.

Born in Spain and now based in Chicago, Eva shares how her early career in radio and television unexpectedly shaped her approach to leadership, stakeholder engagement, and project management. From understanding audiences and navigating deadlines to translating between competing priorities, she explores why communication may be one of the most underrated skills in modern project delivery.

Together, they unpack how project management has evolved over time — from process-heavy coordination to increasingly strategic leadership — and why agility today is less about speed and more about intentional, responsive decision-making. The conversation also explores multicultural teams, assumptions in leadership, continuous learning, mentorship, and the growing importance of emotional intelligence in increasingly complex environments.

Eva reflects on her PMP journey, lessons from PMO mentorship through The PMO Leader, and shares practical advice for emerging project professionals: stop making assumptions, listen more intentionally, and lead with ownership rather than authority.

If you’ve ever questioned what makes a great project manager beyond frameworks and certifications — or wondered how communication, culture, and curiosity shape long-term success — this episode offers a refreshing perspective on leadership in practice.

In this episode:

2:57 Pivoting from Journalism to PM

5:50 Marketing Projects and Real Deliverables

9:41 Multicultural Teams and Clear Alignment

15:04 Building PMO Skills Through Mentorship

24:44 Start Owning Decisions and Stop Assumptions

…and more.

🎧 Tune in, take notes, and explore what project leadership looks like when communication, adaptability, and intentionality come first. 

Connect with Eva: www.linkedin.com/in/eva-pareja

Transcript

Welcome And A Note On Help

Fatimah Abbouchi 0:00

You're listening to Agile Ideas the Podcast, hosted by Fatima Ribucci. For anyone listening out there not having a good day, please know there is help out there. Hi everyone and welcome back to another episode of Agile Ideas. I'm Fatima, CEO at AMO, Mental Health Ambassador and your host. On today's episode, we have Eva Pareja. So Eva is a dedicated dedicated and devoted communicator who landed in project management to convey ideas in a more plausible and measurable way. Eva is an integrated project manager and currently based in Chicago. She's responsible for leading and executing cross-functional projects for various clients in the multicultural market. She's known as a multifaceted and versatile and also for driving momentum. She's almost 30 years of experience in media, communications, advertising, and project management. Eva blends rigorous project management methodologies with strong communication skills to deliver high quality, measurable outcomes. She was originally born in Spain, where she started her radio and TV career at the age of 20, and then decided to follow her desire and seize a personal professional opportunity as a move to the US, where she started her career in Chicago as a project coordinator. Eva also holds a bachelor in journalism from Complutense University in Madrid, and she's also a certified project management professional. So please welcome Eva to the show. Eva, welcome to the show. Thank you, Fatima. How are you today? I am much better. Um, much better than I was a couple of weeks ago. There's a lot of bugs going around, so um, I'm glad to be feeling better this week. But thank you for joining me from Chicago. Is that right?

SPEAKER_01 1:52

That's correct.

Meet Eva And Her Media Roots

Fatimah Abbouchi 1:53

Amazing. I love it. Love this um global presence of having all these exceptional project people all over the world that we get to speak to, and it's fascinating because your background, as I was just introducing you, is very diverse in the sense that you started in journalism. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_01 2:10

That is correct. I mean, that's actually my my background and my original career. Uh, so you can call me an accidental PM if you want to. Um, because yes, journalism was uh I I did that for 15 years as a radio and TV reporter.

Fatimah Abbouchi 2:25

I was gonna say it's interesting because most of the people that are in project management are accidental, like most of us don't even know what project management is, um, like many of my guests, and we don't actually know what that terminology means. And then to go into it, it actually usually does happen by accents. So that's that's fascinating. But tell me, so you started in journalism, you started in in your career in media. How did you either make the decision to switch or fall into project management from that space? Talk to us a little bit about that.

SPEAKER_01 2:56

Yeah,

Pivoting From Journalism To PM

SPEAKER_01 2:57

well, I mean, as you can imagine, I I didn't plan to move into project management. I kinda, you know, it happened. Uh, but I can tell you though that uh the pivot between one or the other, I don't think it was uh, you know, as dramatic as it sounds. Um, you know, working in media, you also have to, and I was discussing this, it's interesting that we have this conversation. I was discussing this a couple of weeks ago uh with someone else, and they would say, Well, you know, you were working in media, you know, you have to have public uh speaking uh skills, so that will help you also uh you know with the role of project manager. You have to identify your stakeholders, your audience, you have to be on time because when there is a live news, you have to be there. So if you think about it, um you realize that the same thing that happens in project management, you know, everything is a deadline and everyone has an opinion. And for me, you know, uh that's kind of you know pretty solid uh project management training. So um I would just say, you know, it's it wasn't a difficult transition, uh, and I'm happy that I did it. Um, you know, I I changed careers, as I mentioned, uh, moved to this country, to the United States, and then is how I, you know, found uh another way to channel somehow my um media background, which is helpful um if you think about it, because my field, the one the one that I work on, uh is marketing, um, advertising, and and public relations. So, you know, a lot of the things are pretty, pretty similar, and the language is it was very easy for me to catch on top of you know, whatever project management you know ideation you need you need to have. So um, as I said, pretty happy with the change, and um I would recommend you know people to to try different things and project management as it sounds, it's it's one, you know, that we always do. Uh a project manager, you know, where we say everyone can be a project manager, but not really. So um it's a great experience to have for sure.

Fatimah Abbouchi 4:42

It's so interesting because um I was gonna ask you, but you've already answered around what um your journalism background and your media background has helped you in terms of project management skills, but you articulated that really well. So I guess thinking about um when you were in that world, you obviously would have been either surrounded by projects and maybe like many of us didn't know there were projects, and then you've gone into um obviously other organizations and you brought your project management skills in there. But when you think about projects that the types of projects that you worked on, you know, you mentioned media and advertising and public sector. What types of projects um in the in those industries did you experience first? And how did you differentiate the business side of project management and the technical side of project management? Because I appreciate sometimes in these organizations, you know, they're doing the technical side of bringing in systems and making change, but then they're also doing the people side of change on the business side. So tell me a little bit about the types of projects you worked on when you were very starting out in your career.

SPEAKER_01 5:49

Yeah,

Marketing Projects And Real Deliverables

SPEAKER_01 5:50

so basically then the most important ones that I have to work on were related to paid media campaigns. Uh, you know, we were on the media planning, media buying to place advertising campaigns on behalf of the clients. So in that regard, you know, it wasn't that of a challenge in terms of you know what the business uh background of it was, it was an easy fit to me as well. And in terms of in terms of the technicalities, I mean, as I mentioned, a lot of the things that you have to do, um they are very similar in terms of what you have to deliver as well. In my case, for example, if I have to work on something related to uh a television piece that I have to edit, you know, a lot of the things that require the language, for example, getting uh, you know, the assets that you have to provide to the media vendors in order for them to uh to place that media by a lot of that you know tech uh terminology I already had it. So it wasn't difficult for me to uh to do that. And then when it comes about delivery, it wasn't either that challenging because I was doing that myself when I was uh you know at the TV station editing my own my own pieces. So at the end of the day, you you I always say the same thing, you know. Um I do a lot of you know a lot of sports and things like that, and and I always find the same answer in some things, oh, this is the same thing, you just apply it to a different field, right? So for me, this is this was the same transition. Uh, so nothing difficult uh or challenging, just learning as I go, obviously, um, and understanding you know what what project management was as a whole, which was you know, I didn't have that that capacity prior to my previous job.

How Project Management Is Shifting

Fatimah Abbouchi 7:28

And then when you think about um all the work you've done in projects over the last 20, 30 years, I think now, um what what has shifted do you think in projects and project management as a field you know early on in your career to now? Like what are you what have you seen as the biggest shifts?

SPEAKER_01 7:47

I would say uh, you know, before it was all it was all everything was more uh comportamental, I would say. Uh right now we are I think we are expanding somehow in the way that we approach things. Um and I think one of the main things that we have to, and especially now with AI, I mean you probably you know have that discussion with uh with um uh a lot of people as well in terms of you know what AI can do for us. Um, you know, we can we are moving much faster right now, but I think also the fact that we are able to have that tool, which is AI, is gonna help us also to um to focus more on making us more visible, I would say, right? Um, you know, AI can give us a lot of things very quickly, um, but I don't think that the the that motion that AI can give us is the same as the commitment that we can have as project managers. So I would say, you know, obviously things have changed quite a bit since we we started, and I would say that's probably one of the ones. Uh the other thing is also understanding, for example, you know, what the role of a project manager manager is. You know, I think you know, there's still a lot of hardness that we have to overcome in terms of understanding the oh, the project manager is the person that does you know, manage the budget, man, just the timelines, the meeting notes, schedule uh meetings. But I think, you know, um one of my previous managers actually mentioned to me always that you are the quarterback, right? You have to see, you know, how the field is looking and you have to throw the ball to the person so things uh can keep moving. I think you know, right now our role is more strategic than before, and I think we should exploit that because it's an area of an opportunity for us and the profession itself.

Fatimah Abbouchi 9:25

I was gonna ask you um whether you think it's uh project management is more communication, more strategy, but you've sort of articulated that. When you think about the audiences and the stakeholders, and um I like the field analogy, I'm always loving the sport analogy, especially when it comes to change management.

Multicultural Teams And Clear Alignment

Fatimah Abbouchi 9:41

But when you think about the different multicultural audiences that you've had to work with, especially around the work that you've done in your early career, how do you ensure alignment and clarity with those stakeholders when they're all going to have diverse perspectives, they're all gonna have different needs and different wants and different desires? Do you have any tips for our listeners on how to navigate that?

SPEAKER_01 10:02

Well, I would say, and I have those issues myself as well. As you can imagine, you know, I'm coming from Spain, you know, I moved to these countries, or you can imagine the culture, even though you may think originally was kind of similar, you still have to live here and experience that that uh culture in order for you to understand what you have to do. I think my best tip uh is you know, you have to be listening and you have to be intentional. Um when you in my case, when I work with you know across cultures, you have to learn very quickly that yes doesn't always mean yes and silence doesn't always mean no. So especially nowadays that we that we move in these you know fast-paced environments, I I don't think we can assume um that because something was said, something was understood the same way. And specifically you mentioned you know, working on these um multicultural teams, you know, uh in a project that I work on with these cross-mult cross-uh-functional uh teams, the ones that I work with, you know, you can imagine the creator has a different way of looking at the project, that uh the account services has a different way of looking at the project, paid media has another way, um, you know, uh Strike has a different way. So our role is probably to be more of a translator or all these those different cultures in order for us to do you know to be able to communicate, which at the end of the day I think is the key and is what solves the problems, you know, in in project management.

Fatimah Abbouchi 11:26

It's um it's interesting because the word balance stands out because I think a lot of the times um there are assumptions that the one size would fit all, especially in some projects where maybe they're light on governance and they don't have the ability to you know um do different communications for this different types of audience, especially when they don't have sort of change resources to support their projects. So as a project manager, you're right, you have to sort of wear different hats and I guess, like you said, listen to who your audience is, whether it's in TV or in projects. When

Learning The Craft And Getting PMP

Fatimah Abbouchi 11:56

you think about um, again, you know, as you sort of started climbing the corporate ladder and you gained more experience, what were the stepping stones you took to learn more project management? Did you just go down a path of practically learning through the projects? Did you decide to do any training? Did you supplement your degree with any project management skills specifically? Tell us a little bit about how did you um you know increase your knowledge and skills in addition to working in projects day to day?

SPEAKER_01 12:27

Yeah, I mean, mostly I for me it always comes with the experience. Um, you know, the more you do the job, the more you are gonna be getting familiar with it. But at the same time, and I was doing it, and I probably I wasn't aware that I was doing it. That's the way that I usually learn, you know, I signed up with um with any uh podcast, with any newsletters and things like that. And then at some point, obviously, I thought it was time for me to um to get certified, uh PMI certified, which PMP, which I did. Uh, and I think was the stepping point for me. Like, uh, you know, uh it actually makes a difference to get that uh certification done. Um and it helped me, you know, drive somehow things in a different way uh that I was doing before, because again, you are backup somehow for something that is uh, you know, truthfully um something that you need to have in order for you to have this prof to work on this profession. So um obviously, you know, you can get the experience, but you also need to have something that is backing you up. And again, listening to webinars, participating in everything is something, you know, it it for me it happens every single day. It's not something that I just did once and then I did, you know, I got certified and I don't do anything else. Every single day I always find time to listen to uh you know different podcasts, to attend webinars. And even if I can attend, you know, I can I can listen to the recording, to read. So every day is an opportunity that I don't want to miss because, you know, as you know, this profession is evolving so fast that you you have to be on top of it in order for you to catch up with everything you're doing, and obviously to implement the the new um the new updates that are coming to the profession.

Fatimah Abbouchi 14:01

And you know, the PMI and PMP is not an easy um certification to get because unlike sort of the CAPM, the the sort of entry-level certification in project management, the P and P is much more based on practice, like in terms of you would you would have to have the some of the experience that you've had to be able to do that because you wouldn't be able to make judgments on the scenarios that you're in. And I mean it's I'm sure it's changed since I last looked at it, but it is very challenging. So the fact that some some of us are going out and securing that, I think does definitely help. Because, like you said, it plugs gaps in the thinking because these um these types of certification, especially these ones that are so well known, are you know co-designed by people that like like you and me who have been in the industry for so long and they can really you really really use practical examples out of their experience to inject in it. So I think it's a good good um recommendation for anyone listening um to consider those reputable certifications. In terms

Building PMO Skills Through Mentorship

Fatimah Abbouchi 15:04

of um one of the other things that I um believe that you are a part of, so we co-founded the PMO Leader, um, which you may or may not know, and I believe you are or were a mentee in that program, is that right?

SPEAKER_01 15:18

Yes, for the second year in a role, yeah, that's correct.

Fatimah Abbouchi 15:20

Okay, beautiful. So I want to ask two questions. So, one, what did you benefit from the first year as a mentee to join for the second year? And what are you hoping to get out of the program this year?

SPEAKER_01 15:34

I would say the first year was for me like, you know, when you go to a new school and you have to learn everything, you know, uh I had some experience in PMO, but I wanted to get more experience. Uh so the first time for me was okay, how does this work actually? You know, I have to look at the instructions, you know, how a PMO works. Um, and you know, having a mentor that was actually walking me through uh the needs, you know, how how can I accomplish things in that regard? I think it put me in a position where I actually wanted to learn much more about it. And that's what it took me to to the second part. The first part was kind of to get the uh the theory about what the PMO uh was, even though, you know, as I mentioned, you know, in the company that I'm working, I still we we started building the PMO, but then the second year, which is the one that I'm going now, is actually being more intentional about how I can actually bring the strategic thinking to the table so I can actually make changes. Uh, you know, that can facilitate that value delivery that I wanna I wanna bring. You know, it's always for me, there's nothing there's nothing that you can do um, you know, from a practicality standpoint if there is not something that you can measure against, right? So for me, always delivering value is a key, and I think the PMO is is that value, you know, that we have to um be aware of, and and that's you know where I'm I'm going towards. I understand you know how I can position the role in a way that you know the um whatever the workplace is can benefit from you know all the um the learners and all the strategic thinking that the PMO has.

Fatimah Abbouchi 17:06

And do you think there was anything that in the from the first year surprised you in terms of because a lot of the time people um who don't have the um experience in PMOs or organizations who are smaller typically don't have them, or even bigger organizations that don't understand the value, and that's changing, which is really positive because of some of the work that the PMO leader is doing in other organizations um like PMO Global Alliance and others. But was there anything that surprised you that when you were in that program the first year that you learned about PMOs in general that you were like, oh, I didn't know that, or or anything that you think would be interesting for the audience who maybe also don't understand what the project management office landscape looks like?

SPEAKER_01 17:47

Well, that's a good question, actually. Um I would say that um I cannot manage everything. And you know, one of the uh the things that my mentor mentioned was you can you can only make suggestions, you know, in terms of what the how to how to manage the projects, because that's basically what the PMO might do, even though you know the PMO is gonna be reporting about everything that is happening across the projects. But that that actually uh struck me somehow because you know, suggesting, I think, but if with the suggestion, how can you actually make the impact into the into the projects, into the organization itself? So I would say that for me was something that um uh it's not that I'm working on just suggesting ideas, but I'm working on you know looking at if you have you know like a piece, well, how do you look from here, from here, from here, from here, so you can actually find answers. And even if it's the answer that comes up with uh you know is not the answer that you were looking for, you still go for it, right? And and I think that's the key. And as a as a PMO leader, and I'm not saying that I'm still in that position, but I'm saying I want to become become someone that can actually have something to say in that regard. I think that's an important realization, you know, instead in terms of understanding every single point within the organization and how you know the PMO can actually leverage a lot of power, I would say, in order to make the organization better.

Fatimah Abbouchi 19:11

It's very um it's a very good observation. And I think one of the things that is really positive is as you said, you sort of you're wanting to move into that PMO space. I really find having that experience in projects is actually makes the PMO role easier because you can then empathize with your project management peers, especially when you need to corral them together to actually drive outcomes. So I think the fact that you've got that lens, it's also really refreshing to see that despite all your years and ex or years of experience, just like you said early on, I think we have to constantly keep um in improving and increasing our learning and being mentored and um bringing in new skills to the table, not just assume that because you know we've got two decades behind us that that's it, we've done all the learning. Because as we were talking about before, with AI and new technologies and changes in regulations and all of these amazing things, it's increasing the pace at which things are moving.

Responsive Leadership Over Reactive Speed

Fatimah Abbouchi 20:06

And I um, if I'm correct in my research, I know that you talked about um you that real agility real agility rather is less about the speed and more about like responsive leadership, intentional responsive leadership. Um, what does that look like in practice, do you think, day to day?

SPEAKER_01 20:24

Um, that's a good question as well. I don't think you see, and and again, we go we both go back to the fast-paced environment that we have in those type of things, right? Uh, but I don't think responsive actually means to reacting to everything. I think that we have to be aware, you know. Um for me, responsiveness is more like what do I actually have to do? What do I actually have to be uh to pay attention to, and you know, how can I respond uh you know with intention? Because otherwise, one of the things that is clear, uh, you know, if we don't do that, we are creating chaos. And I think uh clarity is the is the solve uh for anything that you know um against ambiguity. And that's probably one of the main things. And we go back to what we were talking about earlier about communication, you know, um communication is gonna be shaping everything. So um responsiveness, I would say just is I I realize, for example, that when when we want to things are slowing down, we try to force things to make them, you know, um a little bit um uh harder. Um because we feel the need that, you know, we feel uncomfortable and we feel the need to do something else. But I think in that point is when we are actually have the opportunity to succeed. Um in that opportunity is larger. I think you know, if something shifts, and we know in this profession everything is always shifting, I think we have to be uh paying attention to it. Um and at that point, I think is when you know uh the choice arises and when you we have a greater opportunity uh to make uh to make proper decisions. So yeah, just responsiveness, just because we have Be agile in this world and in this profession, I don't think it is, you know, respose responding fast. I think it's responding clearly and understanding what you actually have to respond to. Yeah, and where you're going. And where you're exactly absolutely.

Fatimah Abbouchi 22:13

It's so interesting because I think the number one word association with agile and agility is speed, but it's not necessarily correct in the sense that for an organization that doesn't have the foundations, the right governance, the right people, the right mindset, all those things you can try to go as fast as you can. But if we're all, you know, if I'm going this way and I'm heading to Africa and you're going this way and you're heading to Asia, we're heading in the wrong direction. It doesn't matter how fast we get there, we're not going to meet each other when we get to where we land. So I think being adaptable is definitely key. And I think in this agile, and now it's sort of transitioned to more of an AI-driven sort of era and world, like where everybody's went from talking about agile, agile, agile to talking about AI, AI, AI. And then there'll be another thing and another thing and another thing. So yeah, I think you're right about response, being responsive as a leader, but also not putting your head in the sand and just you know, not being like some. There are some leaders who I speak to who um were just too late on the agile bandwagon or too late, too late to adopt AI. And I think that's you know, something that they it's a missed opportunity really for those leaders. So it's um interesting, interesting.

SPEAKER_01 23:28

And I would say, I would say also, you know, um, in this profession, because everyone is looking at the project manager, right? So um I think that a lot of the things of in the way I see, I think that because we think that we are project managers, right? But in reality, we're just people that are playing the role of one. So I think when um when we are holding that title very tightly, we are actually holding ourselves for leading with our senses, right? And then we start leading with assumptions. So I think you know, sometimes uh it feels also that we know too much, and that knowing too much is is getting in the way. So, you know, we don't listen to what people are saying, we react to things, you know, and and I don't think it's helping uh is helping us. So I don't like to use actually the the word agile in terms of how it's understood nowadays. I think agile originally it meant like you know, create with e at ease. So and and I think you know, I I rather look at it that way because that way, you know, I'm facilitating things, you know, I'm creating, I'm making things grow. And I think that's for me the the approach that allows me to um look at whatever I'm working on from a different perspective, you know, not only from the current uh understanding of what I mean.

Fatimah Abbouchi 24:43

And

Start Owning Decisions Stop Assumptions

Fatimah Abbouchi 24:44

then I guess I'm thinking of all the experiences you've had, what's the one thing that you would start step you would tell either um project managers or upcoming project managers to start doing? And what's one thing you would say to them, stop doing based on your experience, your you know, trials and tribulations, your hard learnings, your good learnings, like what would you say start this and stop that? Is there any advice you can give to project managers?

SPEAKER_01 25:14

Um interesting. Okay, so I would say for start doing, I think um just be accountable for your actions. I don't think um, you know, being a leader um that starts with authority. I think you know you have to own it. And um, you know, as I mentioned earlier, I think in project management people are always watching less what we say as PNs, and they're looking more on you know how we respond when something you know is gets difficult, it gets unclear, things can get on track. So um I always say that you know, as people, we always um create our own reality. Um so and that reality is also is also transferred to the project through our decisions, through our communication, uh, the way we the way that we show up, you know, and and you know, I think we're always responsible for that reality. And I don't think we can separate the two. So um being a leader with that ownership in mind, because at the end of the day, I think that is also part of the what is you know the human side of project management. Um I don't think everyone needs to have um uh uh a leader, you know, that that is perfect. I think what we need in in all points in this profession is to have clarity and and consistency. So I would say, you know, ownership and being accountable, um, that's for me one of the things that I like to um I would start doing, and I wouldn't stop practicing if you if you if you put it that way. Um and what I would stop doing, um I would start I would stop doing making assumptions uh making assumptions. I think you know a lot of the times because the way and we go back again. I mean this this is also intricate. We go back to the culture. You know, we grow up in a way that we have certain assumptions about how things should be. But then when you work with people and and we talk about the culture working with different um people from different cultures, you cannot make the same assumptions because things are not the same from one or the other. So um the intentionality is one one key. Um so I would say stop making assumptions, work with intentionality and listen. I think that's that's the key to to make things through. Because at the end of the day, you know, the timelines, uh, the deliverables, uh the face gates, I mean, whatever you want to call it, that's those are always gonna be coming with the with the profession and the experience. But the other thing is um is is key in order for you to actually be someone that wants to have you know a place in the table.

Fatimah Abbouchi 27:44

And and people uh you know wanting to work with you as well because projects are only successful because of the people. Um so yeah, so no, I think I think that's great advice. And I honestly, if if you know you go back into early career, I think it's something that a lot of us probably don't get taught in the certifications and in the textbooks. It doesn't come across in any courses that you do. Really, those are sorts of the sorts of um experiences that you have that then you can pass on, and hopefully one day you then mentor others um as well. So, yeah, really well said.

The Living Book And Closing Notes

Fatimah Abbouchi 28:22

So thank you for sharing that. My last question for you, um, the one we always close out our podcast with, is there anything else that you'd like to share with our listeners? Either a call to action, a piece of advice, or a question to ponder.

SPEAKER_01 28:37

Um, well, it's kind of related to the thing that we just talked right now. Um, you know, I was told once, read the living book, they told me. And I didn't understand what that meant. I said, Well, what do you mean? I said, Where can I find that book? And the and and the answer was the reading, the living book is you. So uh that means every time you put yourself in a situation, you know, uh look at how you are reacting. And we are exposed to so many people, so many personalities, you know, to so many situations, and each of those are actually teaching you how you are doing those things and how can you grow, you know, internally and therefore, you know, externally. So um I would say read the living book, you know, enjoy it and uh yeah, and grow because there's nothing, there's nothing that you can do with that growth. And and the experience is only always gonna stay with you. And that's that's for me, you know, the um the excitement about getting a new experience and you know, and what's the next question? What is this taking me? That's always that that I thrive for. And and you know, if I can share something with someone, that would be my best tip.

Fatimah Abbouchi 29:40

I love that. The living book. I'm gonna use that. I love it. That's it. Very say thank you so much, Eva. That was really good. I really wanted to take the audience into a bit of a deep dive into the world of project management because you know, like you with PMO, there's a lot of people out there that are listening that are practitioners, practitioners that follow our show that um want to understand a little bit more behind the scenes of project management. So um, from one practitioner to another, thank you for your time today and um yeah, appreciate having you on the show. Thank you so much for listening to this podcast. Please share this with someone or rate it if you enjoyed it. Don't forget to follow us on social media and to stay up to date with all things agile ideas. Go to our website www.agile managemoffice.com. I hope you've been able to learn, feel, or be inspired today. Until next time, what's your agile idea?