#170 | How Modern PMOs Earn Their Strategic Seat with Amireh Amirmazaheri

What if governance didn’t feel like bureaucracy, but like momentum?

In this episode, we sit down with Amireh Amirmazaheri to explore how modern PMOs grow from “project admin” to strategic partner by blending trust, clarity, and creativity. We trace Amireh’s path from teaching and early IT architecture to leading major PMO transformations, showing how turning complexity into simplicity builds credibility and lasting value.

Together, we unpack the practical side of PMO impact:

Simple, human measures that leaders actually feel, from pain scores before and after interventions to meeting turnout, repeat attendance, and the moment teams begin to use your language without prompting. These signals often say more than dashboards ever could, because they prove adoption, not just activity.

We also explore how to tailor PMO services to fit industry, maturity, and culture, avoid “lift and shift” models, and use visual storytelling to make strategies memorable. A snail can represent slow delivery; a campfire can symbolize alignment. When people remember the picture, they act on the plan.

The conversation dives into global PMO trends, from the growing strategic influence of PMOs and the PMO-CP certification, to updates to the PMO Value Ring, now expanding its focus to include PMO strategy, design, and governance, with a new outer layer on organizational maturity, culture, and structure.

In this episode we discuss: 

0:00 — Welcome and Guest Introduction

 2:45 — Early Career and Entrepreneurial Roots

 6:20 — From IT Operations to Projects

 10:45 — Discovering PMO and Finding Purpose

 15:05 — Building Trust and Credibility

 20:30 — Defining Value and Simple Metrics

 26:10 — Fit-for-Purpose PMOs and Tailoring

 31:20 — Mindset Shifts and Risk Conversations

 35:40 — Bringing Creativity into Governance

 41:10 — Global Trends, Awards, and PMO Identity

 47:30 — PMO Value Ring Updates and PMO-CP

 53:20 — Elevating PMOs Outside the Bubble

 58:00 — Closing Advice and Calls to Connect

If you’ve ever wondered how to make a PMO indispensable to the business, this episode is your playbook: build

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome And Guest Introduction
• 2:45 Early Career And Entrepreneurial Roots
• 6:20 From IT Operations To Projects
• 10:45 Discovering PMO And Finding Purpose
• 15:05 Building Trust And Credibility
• 20:30 Defining Value And Simple Metrics
• 26:10 Fit-For-Purpose PMOs And Tailoring
• 31:20 Mindset Shifts And Risk Conversations
• 35:40 Bringing Creativity Into Governance
• 41:10 Global Trends, Awards, And PMO Identity
• 47:30 PMO Value Ring Updates And PMO-CP
• 53:20 Elevating PMOs Outside The Bubble
• 58:00 Closing Advice And Calls To Connect

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:00

You're listening to Agile Ideas Podcast, hosted by Fatima Booty. For anyone listening out there not having a good day, please know there is help out there. Hi everyone and welcome back to another episode of Agile Ideas. I'm Fatima, CEO at AMO, Mental Health Ambassador, and your host. Today's episode is well and truly long overdue. And the reason for this is because this lovely lady that we're going to be speaking to today is someone that has an absolute heart of gold that I've had the pre privilege of knowing for quite a while now, after she and I met at an event in Melbourne when she was down here from Sydney and just kicked it off. And ever since then, we've been collaborating and connecting and speaking, and it's been a real pleasure knowing her. So please let me introduce you to Amira, Amir Mazahari. Amira is a visionary leader in project, program, and portfolio management with 20 years of international experience across the Middle East and Asia Pacific. As CEO of PMO Solutions and chair of the GPMF 2025, she's known for driving strategic transformation through human-centered tech-enabled solutions. She serves as the APAC hub lead and advisory board member at PMO Global Alliance and is recognized for bridging strategy and execution, empowering PMO to deliver sustainable impact. Her approach blends system thinking, digital innovation, and creative leadership to align purpose, people, and performance. It's going to be a fun conversation. So please join me in welcoming Amira to the show. Amira, welcome to the podcast.

SPEAKER_02: 1:48

Thank you so much, Fatima, for having me.

SPEAKER_00: 1:51

I was saying just before I was recording your bio that we have been meaning to do this for a very, very long time. And uh it's finally here. Too busy women not never finding the time to meet and actually talk in person. So hopefully we get to do this many more times as well.

SPEAKER_02: 2:09

Yeah, that's uh that's always a pleasure to be connected, to work with you and sharing the stage with you.

SPEAKER_00: 2:17

And if you remember where we met, it was a few years ago. And I remember because I was at a conference in Melbourne, you came down to be to uh to um have an exhibition at. And I remember you just like smiled at me and waved, and I we didn't know each other, and I just thought, oh, this person's so lovely. And I was, you know, it was ever since then I think we've just stayed connected. It's it's great to you know be surrounded by other powerful women that are you know making waves in this industry. So let's get into it. I want to start with your background because you um obviously are very deep in this PMO project transformation space, but that's not where you started. Where did you start? Tell us a little bit about your background, your background.

SPEAKER_02: 2:58

Um, Fatima, like I I don't know when I did I start what. But getting into the professional um journey, my journey started when I was, I think I was 13 years old, 12, 13 years old. So it was a time um that I started teaching what I was learning. So my whole my first journey, my first kind of like a working um with outside a stakeholder, with external stakeholders and a real customer was uh um on um and the time I started to be a tweeter. Um before that in I had in-house and internal stakeholders, so I had responsibility of managing um like a spring cleaning of the house or having different people coming in, coming out, or it was a big event, I was kind of like a person who was um connecting the dots together. Um then by starting uh like teaching and sharing the knowledge, um that was mainly with the purpose of um learning and more learning of what I learned in the classroom. Um so my my dad's analogy was if you want to learn, if you want to pass the exam, so teach it. Um and he was true because everyone who um I was teaching to had a lot to share and had um a different perspective of the knowledge. So that was a time that I learned um to listen to and I learned to convert complexity to simplicity. Um then my entrepreneurial journey um started from the time that it was internet and I was working in a university and nobody else had internet, even those, you know, the modem dialing modem. And um, you're not supposed, although you know my age, but you're not supposed to count it now. Um so it started from the time that I was downloading the model for the flower bucket on the floppy disk and walking around to the flower shop and selling those uh floppy disks to them. Uh so that was a time that I had to market to be able to sell something, um, and then also empowering those uh shops to um just getting out of their comfort zone and market what they had to their customers that is something new and some models from the internet. Um then I started my bachelor degree in um computer hardware engineering. Um along the way, I was also working when while I was uh studying. Then I um got to the workforce, the former workforce very quickly. Um and that was after nine years working so hard with uh specifically in the oil and energy industry. Um, my journey from very purely IT technical and a technology side delved into the project management and I started my journey with Primover Global, um, supporting all the enterprise and mega projects across the Middle East region. Um, and the time that I moved to Australia, I was kind of like on the other side of the fence designing and implementing enterprise systems. So I got my master's degree in IT with a focus on designing and setting up enterprise business systems. So when I'm talking about system, I'm not talking only about a technology, I'm talking about the whole uh connecting the dot and shaping up an orchestration. And that was like, yeah, the seeding of the PMO space started a long time ago from mainly enabling and empowering and leading people to get into that discipline and organization. Yeah, that was the starting point.

SPEAKER_00: 7:18

It's um it's so interesting because when you listen to that background, you're like, huh, it's it's so um like so far now from where you started to what you're doing now, and we'll get into that in a minute. Um, but one of the things that really is a challenge for a lot of people is when they go out of an operational type of environment. Um, for those listening that are not clear what I mean, like you know, uh your um your IT role, HR, um, finance, etc. So operational, business as usual, and then moving into projects. So how did you how did you uh initially identify what projects or project management was? Did you fall into it? Um, we were you seeking it out? How did you actually make the connection that that is different to business as usual?

SPEAKER_02: 8:09

So the thing is like um even in the IT, now I I know I don't know about the other operational uh function in depth, but I can say at the time, uh specifically in IT, you are you are also an enabler function. So specifically for um the businesses which are um set based on um enterprise projects, based on gigamega projects, which are the like a bone and uh blood of the business. Um IT is sitting as an as an enabler again. Um one of the things that we normally see, and it is very common in IT Word as well, is a differentiator between the IT and the business. But we can see when you are in it, you can see that IT is part of the business anyway. It is part of the legs and hands of the business to make it uh moving. Um but on the other side, when they were talking about managing their project and delivering that project, I'm not saying I was the person who was hands-on to um managing those projects, but I always were playing a role of the enabler and a facilitator of not either not only not only technology level, but also system level, but also methodology level. And when I'm talking about methodology is not about initiating planning, design, and not the project management framework, I'm talking about a way of working. Um, so my main um like I started from the big picture of the IT and then architecture, the infrastructure networking architecture, mainly were on um Cisco and Microsoft. Um, one of the biggest achievements at the time that we had was we connected 16 valves, um, oil valves across the whole country to one single centralized location. So our CEO was able to see um the status of the valves on his wall in his room. Um, so for having such a thing at that time, like I'm talking about how many years ago? Like about 30 years ago, which was like the outlook was new. Um, they were talking about firewalls, like Yahoo Messenger was around, so he had to block Yahoo Messenger in our network. That was um that was that needed um a very good enabler uh function to look at the business elements and connect it together. My um takeaway of that is the operational part of the business is the enabler part of the business, is the one that is putting the bones um and the structure and the foundation of the business to move and be able to look at those changes, look at those uh projects um to be able to deliver that. And if these two are not connected and if this is a gap between them, um that is that is not the the the wheels are not working together. Um so my journey was exactly in that middle. So connecting the technology side to the force that they were so deep deep into project management, you know, in oil and energy and engineering, project management is super technical. Um, so I was not dive into that technicality, I was mainly sitting um as a layer to enable um those technical knowledge to support the success of the project. And when I'm talking about a project, that was a like a huge project. It was actually the whole company was built around that big, big mega project.

SPEAKER_00: 12:18

And and that and that um nicely links into transformation, exactly which people throw around all the time now, and there's different um, I guess, different ways of describing transformation depending on the project, the company, the maturity, what you've described there in that sort of um industry around utilities and and energy or mining and some of these really complex uh transformation is very different to what you would see maybe in a small, medium-sized business. So um, when you think about that can conduit that you played between, that that really stings to how PMO at its heart comes into it and really I can see where the skills transfer. So, when did you first I guess learn about what PMO was um and really understood it? And because that's something that is you know not commonly referred to. So, where where in your journey did you fall in love with PMO and find out what it could do for businesses?

SPEAKER_02: 13:21

Um finding out the what the function of the PMO is, right? Yeah, and falling in love with it as you have. Um I I I think normally, like, you know, when from the from the very early age, I was always a person who likes to um set the scene, organize, make the things happen, moving it forward, um getting the idea of where we want to get to and make that idea happen. So always a person like liked to um do what I was saying. Um and I was so like committed to my words. Um when I came to Australia, um I was moved um uh from like uh their region as a person who was working dedicated to Primavera. Um so I moved to Australia and my amazing loved um first manager in Australia that I owe him a lot, and I would love always to remember him as a person that um the first person in Australia who trusted me and gave me the stage to show my strength. And unfortunately, I lost him. Uh, Wayne Wilson, uh, you you know, I talk about him several times. Um, so he trusted me and he um put me forward um in the in the Australian industry as a primover consultant. So our job was mainly to um embed into the Australian business and then implement that project control system for them. And then um after that I got um appointed to a project in latent contractor, which was a CPP CPB, uh, and my second amazing manager um as uh Robert Turner, uh, I was working with him, and the function that we had, and my role specifically was to take care of the very like actually we had the largest um enterprise of primavera in the whole Australia and New Zealand, uh, and I was taking care of that part, and our whole group was the one that we were enabling um other project controls and the projects that was at the time with latent contractor. That was the time that I got more familiar with the concept as a name of the PMI, um, but I was always arguing that hey, I am not a business analyst because I did um the certification of PMI PBA. I actually was one of the first ones that I got that certification, um, which is great. It is talking about facilitation, it's talking about finding the requirements, um, asking the right question, how to connect people together, how to understand the different people's needs, which was very aligned with what I was learning when I was teaching as well, because I'm also a certified trainer in project management. So we learn a lot of psychological um you know things to understand how to communicate and how to convey the message. Um, that was the time that I was thinking, like, we are not a business analyst, but we are sitting between the the wheels. And then Robert was always saying that you are the oil between the wheels. Um I said, like, what is this function? This function is not, we are not managing projects, we are not controlling a project, we are not IT, we are not B BA, so what it is, and then that was the time that I was looking at and um got the concept of the PMO, which um, if you remember, um the PMO journey started from that project management office things, uh the admin of stuff. So that was the time, and then because of my role within latent contractor, I really loved it. Because like, you know, I I don't know if I think but like when you see that like people are coming to you and then they follow the things, and you see that orchestration and you see that big picture that the things are working together, that's very pleasing and very uh enjoyable. Um and the backbone of all of these are the people. Um, so kind of like, and the people are never getting boring, right? There it's always something new you're learning um in connecting the dots together. So that's why um the the specific tag name of my expertise land on the PMI space, mainly.

SPEAKER_00: 18:20

It's so um such a beautiful story. Um, first of all, sorry about losing Wayne, um, but it's so um so great to see just how um um you light up. Um you're one of the most passionate people I know in the project management office space for those that don't know what PMI stands for. Um, and you just light up talking about it. So it's amazing um to be to see that. Um I wanna I want to go back to your first manager in Australia. You said something really important. You said the first person that trusted you.

SPEAKER_02: 18:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 18:52

So there's people here today that are going to be listening to this, thinking about maybe they're early in their career or maybe they're transitioning into a different part of their career. And perhaps one of the things that they could benefit from is how do you how did you build that trust with someone? And and what would you recommend for them if they want to become that trusted, I guess, trusted partner, and over time, like you've become a trusted advisor to a lot of companies. How do you build the trust um so that people like Wayne um trusted you to get the job done?

SPEAKER_02: 19:25

Um, you know, trust is a relationship, it's a two-way relationship, it's um like a 50-50 relationship. Um it is, and then I I actually really like this subject. Uh building the trust is one of my favorite subjects, um, specifically in the leadership, because the trust is changing. Like um that I was I saw a comic, and then the girl was saying, like, um, give me show me your Instagram um chat, and then she was showing, show me your Facebook chat, and then she was showing, show me your emails, she was showing, and then all the text messages, and then they asked me, like, show me your chat GPT conversation, and then she ran out. So you see that, like, we are getting to the point that now we are trusting an AI agent, um, and we are saying everything to it. Um, so if you're looking at that um journey, we can see even the trust is changing its shape, right? And always make this example like like um 10 years ago, would you um trust an estranged person from another country booking his like or her house and going there and staying in that house and paying that person? So it is like look at that how human is um evolving as well. Um but at the end of the day, when you are looking at that trust is to be true um and to be to your word are the elements of the trust. So, first of all, say like saying, presenting, modeling um the thing that you truly believe, um, and repeating that. Um it's all about creating that momentum and then showing that I am this with all the goods and the bads. Sometimes I'm good, sometimes I'm not good. I I I talk to you a lot about like we talk and chat together. So you see that, like the other day the lady called me and said, How are you? and one of the customer service um for my car, and then she said, How are you? I said, I'm not good. Like so it's it's just to be true to the words. Um, and at the end of the day, all of us are human. I would love to use this stage and invite people um to reflect on them on themselves that how much are you executing of your words and your beliefs. And on the other side, for the people who has this stage, who has the power, who are sitting in a place that they are making a decision, is uh truly open your eyes into the people who are coming to you with a true heart and trust those ones that they are saying, I do it for you, I make this happen. Because if you don't trust those people, if you don't, if you don't give them their stage, um they don't will not have the opportunity to shine. And it was very interesting when um I was talking to Rain and I told him, like, I never forget that you trusted me on a day that so many people, if that resume that I brought by with myself from Iran, if it was me myself now, I wouldn't recruit that person, I wouldn't put that person in front of the customer. So he trusted me, and that trust gave me power to stand up and do my best, no matter what is happening. And he was always there, even if I made a mistake. So give that not only yourself saying, like, I don't know everything, but whatever I know, I will do my best, and the person who is making a decision, the other side of the equation, let the people to make a mistake, let them to um shine, and that is gonna make you shine as well. So that's a two-way things, um, which I don't know how we can formulate it, but this is this is only my thinking.

SPEAKER_00: 23:48

It's it's a good point because um I don't think there's uh necessarily a formula or a model, because if you're being true to yourself, then really it should shine through. I I resonate a lot with how your relationship was with your manager and and like you said, the the trust factor there, because if I think back to a number of instances in my career, there are definitely moments where I didn't think I was equipped or well um suited perfectly to a position or a role, but because the the people that I was dealing with maybe saw passion, like I see your passion, or maybe they see what you described around walking the walk and talking the talk, they then give you that opportunity because they believe that you're gonna stick to your word. So I definitely think that sometimes it's not about your years of experience, but it's how people see you and and experience you and how you make them feel.

SPEAKER_02: 24:44

Yeah, exactly. Like I I um uh ran um a survey in LinkedIn, which was about I was curious about to find out like what makes the customer retention high. Um, I'm so proud and also humble to say like in PML solution we have over 95% customer retention. And I was just like curious to see like how people are seeing it uh out there. That is it because um the experience that you're they are receiving, or because of the service they are receiving, because of their relationship, but what is that? And then it was very interesting that the the majority was saying because of the experience. So at the end of the day, that's that experience that matters, and then that is the main thing that makes PMO successful as well. Um, to how you are defining what exactly you're doing and what pain you're fixing. Um, so that's that's that main little trick from um PMO Squad um survey last year in 2024. We can see that 64% of the PMOs are not able, like are actually challenging demonstrating their values, which is lying down in that way of like creating that trust, creating that momentum, creating that experience with your customers in the business. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 26:16

It's so easy for people to throw the word value around. Value, value, value. Oh yeah. And you know, honestly, sometimes it's it's so much as long as you provide value. And it's like, what's value? Value is a bottle. It's just, it's just, it's very easy to just throw because it's not measurable, right? Like realistically, unless you've got metrics around it. So maybe on that point, um, I'm keen to get your thoughts on maybe um if you were assessing whether a PMO was doing a good job, be it the person leading andor the the outputs of the function itself, what would be the two or three things that you would advise an executive? Pay attention to these two or three things, and that will help you guide whether your PMO is doing a good job.

SPEAKER_02: 27:01

Um, you know, Fatima, have you like ever been in a doctor and they're asking you out of one to ten, how much is painful? And you're saying, oh, 10, I'm dying, right? And then after they are doing something, um, you're saying, okay, they are saying out of one to ten because they want to measure measure, like they want to have some kind of like a odometer on it to say, like, okay, how what is the pain? And you're saying it is five. So this is a 50% pain reduction. Right? This is the experience that you had with that um treatment journey. So that is the value that that treatment journey brought to you. And the thing is, like, if you are making it too complicated. I I'm seeing hearing that, like, oh, the value is the profit that we are making, the value is that, the value is, but like, yes, but is the challenge of that business is to make profit or is to get into more customer, or to just stay where it is, like just continue doing what it is. So we need to create that language to say, like, okay, out of one to ten, but being consistent in their our range of measurement, being consistent of how we are talking to them and how we are creating and establishing that experience. You know, so value is yeah, you're right. Everybody's talking value, and then you're asking them, okay, what is value?

SPEAKER_00: 28:39

Yes.

SPEAKER_02: 28:39

They're like, hey, it's just just just ask what do you want from me? Why do you want me here? What if I'm not here? Remember, it's actually one of the conversations that we had together, and I think it was a long time ago, and you mentioned that, and it's always in my head, and I ask this question actually, and I always um bring your name in as well. Um, just remove what you're doing, just turn off the report that you're putting on. And if nobody is coming and asking you, get rid of it, where is it? It doesn't add any value, right? Exactly, exactly. This is the way um you are talking about the value. The value can be your commitment. Um, so when you are talking about walk the talk, is your commitment that you're putting in actually your baseline? And are you delivering based on the baseline or a commitment that you had? So um that is the value, right? This is a formula in earned value in project. Yeah. You are looking at the baseline. Yeah. So as long as value is a big thing and then like a buzz. word and like like the strategy execution we are here to make you successful that that and but like at the end of the day um what we are doing really yeah and do you really want us so I always ask this from my customers that do we're still interested do you want us here or not um are we really helping you out of one to ten how much we are helping you and they're saying like oh two bye so you're not this this is yeah just I think that's that's simple.

SPEAKER_00: 30:37

You know it's interesting because you're right I we do we do talk about the the concept of you know turn small things like I mean everyone talks really big strategy and huge KPIs and metrics and I know when we were doing some work together you your your team um and yourself created this really good list of KPIs that PMOs can use that that's all well and good. But sometimes I feel like it's the small thing. So exactly what you described in terms of the relationship asking a simple question like a GP, like your doctor would ask one of the other measures that I've seen firsthand recently that I think is really worth calling out is obviously in the PMO, depending on what we're doing, particularly when we're we're running you know large programs of work where we're supporting delivery and we're trying to make sure all these things are happening sometimes we find, I find that we have to communicate a lot of messages and you've got to put meetings in place, you've got to bring people together, you have to get awareness, educate, etc, etc, etc. And I don't know about you, but I find that the more complex the program the more meetings the PMO has to set up and I find I set up a lot. I reckon a really good measure that's so simple is how many times in those meetings what's the turnout of people that turn up to your meetings? How many times can you simplify something so rather than making people um making people get information in a way that suits you as the person running it, provide opportunities for them to come and be part of a whether it's a knowledge share session or something. And I find the number of people that return to things like that is a really good metric because people are joining PMO sessions and PMO classes and training and all that's a really good sign that you're doing a good job. So that's one of the small ones that I just feel like is really relevant that I've seen recently that I think could maybe help some people as well.

SPEAKER_02: 32:31

Yeah and the other thing is um you know um yeah we have like if you read KPI like a practice guide all the services has KPI yes absolutely so that's a norm. Like you know as a standard term when you're looking at it you want to wait you want to do the weight loss there are a specific KPI that you can measure against it. But it is up to you which one is which one is related right so the list is fantastic and it's really valuable to have a list of those KPIs a list of like a kind of um having a reference but saying that the art of the PMO is to find out what is fit for what yeah right and then that's the thing one of the very like a very simple um kind of like um um point or some some of the things that you can see that this is they are moving. I even found it simpler than even sitting in a meeting I found it when your customers started saying repeating your words and getting to that language and getting to that discipline without them recognizing that they are following something yeah and they think that they are doing it by themselves that those are the moments that I celebrate in my heart. Yes yes although I'm not saying anything but I'm saying yes they got it you know that's the point I was like you know 100% yes I I got to the point of like and then I learned that a lot um um it's not about knowing it's about doing and being so it is very important that if I am a PMO I am a I am really a PMO in life right as I'm saying like my my little one my five years old has a Kanban board um and she plans her things like she's doing what what she has done or um I always I was working in um Sydney maintenance contract which is one of the main um contracts in Sydney and in NSW for doing the infrastructure and the um intelligent transport systems maintenance works which is a very huge busy like high volume portfolio and then I always have my um diary in my hand and then I had a block of the timing and then like the discipline of putting the like you know ticking off the habits and they were making a joke of me and said like two weeks later Wednesday what is your lunch and I was telling them that like for example I don't know my salmon beef and then oh look look at that you know it's it's all about doing and being con that consistency that repeating that when your customers are repeating what you're saying are are looking at the discipline as a way that is their habit this is a time that you're successful no matter what that's a value.

SPEAKER_00: 36:08

Yeah a hundred percent it's so interesting you say that because I I I just recall like we talk a lot um at AMO about like the AMO way and capability in a box and blah blah blah but um when we would work with clients similar to you we have you know our own models and methods and processes and tools etc but we don't go in there and say hey we're gonna use the AMO way and we're gonna do this we're gonna because one that's gonna overwhelm them. It's not right fit, right time. But we use it to run projects and the programs and do the governance and all that. And then by the end of it they're actually going oh um I thought we were going to use this or we use that and it's like we have been the whole way through but you tailor what is needed and I think PMOs really struggle that I see many of them go from one organization, lift and shift what they did there and bring it to another but the industry might be different the maturity might be different the experience the language is different the acronyms are different and it's not the right fit all the time. It took me a long time to figure that out it also took me a long time to figure out that it's not about me as the PMO leader. It's about those that we support being the stakeholders and the delivery teams and the executives and things.

SPEAKER_02: 37:22

So it's a really um it's a really timely reminder I think the right fit um the right time the right place not assuming that it's a one size fits all yeah this is another another one the fit for purpose you know a strategy execution value delivery fit for purpose but if then you're getting into the into the like a really DNA of these words implementing these words is the art of the PMO so not everybody can be a PMO then a hundred percent and not everyone can be an entrepreneur um they could try but it doesn't suit some people my husband would not be a good entrepreneur and nor does he have an interest in doing so um likewise I think there's some really talented project management professionals that would be exceptionally good at delivering projects and programs but some of them have gone into PMO and they've failed and likewise there's some that are really good in PMO but have not come across the projects very well because they're better at the governance and the oversight and the reporting and the control and the conjuit conduit between stakeholders so I think there's a definitely a a blurred line there that um people probably just need to be a bit more aware of I I I on that point wanted to ask if you think about the mindset behind change which um is necessary for a PMO leader what do you think one mindset shift that they could make to make them have a bigger more meaningful impact in the organizations they're supporting a lot my friend favorites um the thing is like there is no right and wrong um so I always say that and I I truly believe on that one although my um perfectionist Amira um comes up my overthinking Amira comes up and say like no no no no this is not right this is not good so um but I started learning not started kind of like um when I saw the soxes which is the time that my customers are thinking um differently is the time that I put that in my head that being biased um and instead of talking about no you should not go this way we should go that way I started to talk about risk I started to talk about what are the consequences and how we are seeing it. And saying that Fatima is very interesting that I learned that more from Jasmine my five years old in terms of logic and then bringing that logic together and then saying because of this fact and because of this fact this is the consequences so and then when you're talking about fact fact consequence then they you're activating the thinking cells instead of bringing the gates up when you are talking in your business. I saw that this is happening and that is getting as a cause of it so this is gonna be the consequence of it how much are you ready for it um so and then like um that mentality of being patient and um kind of like I don't know being patient and being careful about your customers is very important. It's uh like a function of PMO is a very very customer care function. It's not um it's not ordering it's not um managing it's leading it's enabling which we are always making a mistake of the role of the PMOs and that is the thing um I had a I had a video of the good bad ugly so in some of the cases we can see um that hey guys it's okay it's not a rank or writing in PMO space it's all about the logic the fact the consequences as well so that's my takeaway everybody has one. You're very um you're very good at blending creativity and structure which you just described very well um and you just talked about risk and I'm I know there's probably people out there that want to make sure they've got the structure and maintain all of that and provide all of the sometimes rigidity but sometimes adaptiveness but how do you bring creativeness into that process where a lot of PMO is about governance how do you bring creativity into governance yeah um I don't know it's it's kind of like I I think that's a natural uh thing coming um but uh saying that I I started painting when I was nine years old nine ten years old um and I was I was me and my brother started um painting together I was the one that um painting whatever they were gave giving me so if they gave me this I was painting this but my brother was the one that when they gave this to him he was painting whatever he thought that this can be looked like okay you know so he was adding that imagination into it. Yes um saying that that helped me to say like it is okay if we just come up with something that is not within the frame. And when I came to Australia and um beautiful vein put me in front of people to teach them project management my I always say that my main goal was people sitting in my room are not asking me a question. So my target was zero question because I I was a struggling of like my my English wasn't that good. So I started using that painting and um kind of creativity bringing the storytelling and then painting for them on the wall like the characters moving together and then telling the story that they do not have any question. So kind of like limitation but also um thinking that you are okay if you do the things another way around um are getting together and then give bring that creativity in. And then moving forward in PMR space I can see that um we are all about those presentation those uh you know ugly charts and things so my artistic eye normally is a person who like I'm I'm curious about like I I'm very fussy about what coloring I'm putting it what are the colors how they are setting together how it comes to the eyes is it Freddy or not? And then I met Paul Telling from Visual Storytellers. So that we tied together hands and then we started bringing that art and creativity into PMR space. So now specifically for those customers that they have um a lot of resistance of seeing the journey or a lot of resistance of seeing the plan we actually convert the plan into posters to the story. Like in one of the um posters that we created like part of the roadmap are the people are around the campfire and it was very interesting that we gave that poster to our customer as a PMO roadmap and they didn't remember what was that roadmap. They remembered the poster like oh that one that snail that is moving slow is a reflection of a slow delivery and then getting to around the campfire or it was a character looking at um outside to the uh to the city showing that the vision that they can have and the visibility that they can have behind the long trees um so they remembered those and we are as a human like we we love that um look at the your iPhone the time that um Steve Jobs put the iPhone together was by by art it wasn't technology right no so i've seen your um I've seen some of your work in the I've seen your your uh little comic that you created I've seen some of the artistic and actually it was one of our early conversations that you um inspired me to take a bit more of a um proactive um uh lens and and make things a little bit less boring for some customers because you're right governance is can be quite boring so bringing some of that creativity in art is actually really a really good idea and um I definitely learned a lot more about that from you so keep up the good work there it's definitely um inspiring customers and people like myself so thank you the other thing I can bring it in I'm I'm sure you and your customers your listeners are gonna love but I had to um attend on a stand up comedy course. Oh okay to learn how to um take the moment and then create some fun out of it uh specifically in English um so that was very helpful I was the worst student in the class but I learned a lot.

SPEAKER_00: 47:37

Well I didn't do comedy although I think that's a real good idea. I was listening to a podcast this morning and um and the um the the doc the doctor specialist they had um heart he's a heart doctor and a heart surgeon and he was saying that if you can um even pretend laugh or get into laughing clubs where they just laugh not because anything's really funny but it stimulates the vagus nerve and that I think can make a really good um impact to your health as well. So that's really smart. I think that's good. I think I did a drama course once um to learn how to do presentations better. Not so long ago. But yeah I think these these sorts of things would be so great um in these organizations. I think it's a really good way to bring fun and and I know that when we when you know I've worked in in different teams it's really hard sometimes but there is that resistance and you've got to find different things. There is some organisations where some of that artistic stuff is just not going to go well. In some some mining teams for example I've seen change management um go very badly where they've attempted dinosaur stickers for example and they didn't go very well. Where in other organizations it makes a lot of sense. So I think you've got to go back to what you said earlier around the right thing for the right time and the right people. So I think that's um it's a really good um it's a really good thing that you guys are doing. So well done on that.

SPEAKER_02: 49:06

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00: 49:08

I just we're getting close to the end of our conversation I did want to circle um to a couple of things. So there's been a lot of changes in the PMO community with the work that you um and the team are doing as part of the PMI PMO GA Global hub and then the APAG hub that you've set up and then you um being um part of the well being the chair for the global project management conference and so I wanted to kind of ask a two part question. So one of them is what are you seeing are the biggest trends right now or coming up in PMO from all of that community that you're part of and then I wanted to touch on um what's changed in the PMO value ring and explain a bit more about that for people that don't know what it is.

SPEAKER_02: 49:51

So maybe if you could answer those two maybe we start with the GMF GPMF and the general community what's the vibe what's the trends that you're seeing and hearing you see um Patima like um I I was telling you like the about the culture and about the people um mindset um like um I can see the Global Project Management Forum was an amazing opportunity. I'm not saying that was easy job it was a huge job out of my little um comfort zone so I actually um at the time that I was doing it I was like what if it goes bad? Because it was huge. I was dealing with 500 leaders um selecting them saying no to someone and then bringing them along and then also going with very new way of setting up the conference was was challenging. I was not alone I had a committee team that they're um supporting but the whole design of the program was um from our side and um first of all huge I can't say appreciation to bader Borshead for his trust um and the way he trusted me and then led me gave me the stage to make a decision on on on the go um and tweak and pivot at the time was very amazing. But what I also saw that is um my friends in Australia it's not a time to sit down and just watching to see where the word is going. This train is moving you want it or you don't want it you need to get into this train um PMO space is moving now PMO is not a little child anymore it is now growing up it is now stepping into the place that is talking about its identity we are looking at the case studies um from the PMO uh global awards and I'm so um proud to say all of us in PMO so like like this is the only homework that we all committed to do is to be the judge in a PMO global award it's we can see that the ethical and the ones that are really really truly embed into their business and they are part of the business they are part of the hands and the head and the eyes of the business are the successful one. But saying that the PMOs that are truly the partner of the business are the ones that are playing the best role of the PMO and they are actually acting on their own right position. The winner of this year it was very interesting looking at them from the different region and I have to work a lot put a lot of effort to encourage Australian companies to throw their hat into the ring and unfortunately we haven't like the the uh the most successful one was this year that get into the semifinal but we are not getting up it means it has a lot of saying that we had a lot to do we had a lot to understand and this is not a message for only PMO people this is a message for the business that understand that not everybody can be a PMO and a good PMO is the one that is your right hand to make a decision. It's your right hand to report to the board bring that visibility of the risks and what is happening in the business what is going on not only on the project to your board expect these sort of things from your PMO like what master schedule and this kind of stuff they are required but this is not the maximum potential of a good PMO. So the trend is moving the PMOs are getting very much stronger you can see with the strategic movement of the PMI of buying PMO global alliance and now we can see such a person like Americo Pinto now it is sitting and working in with PMI to strengthen this profession is a very good opportunity to recognize PMO as a specific profession in project management, which I'm so proud to say that the PMO CP um which is not new right like we launched PMO CP um in 2018 in Tesla showroom in Australia right that was the time that America came to Australia. So PMOCP is a great certification that is going to give you the fundamentals and the knowledge of what can PMO be about um you ask a very good question like in terms of the PMOGA EPACHUB we are one of the hands of the PMOGA global that which we are actually reporting to America and the global leaders in the PMO space we are working hands in hand with the PMR chapters um we are um setting up and delivering some webinars and some uh study groups and support as a knowledge management as an expert um to the project management community the other thing that we are we have in our roadmap is uh we are bringing the cases from the global um PMO award and we will have a simulating the judging um sessions for the people so that you can join uh there will be discussion about that specific case so you can learn from your peers as well so the main vision of the PMO GA APAC hub is to connect PMO community together and um empower PMO professionals to learn from each other um which I know like the APAC hub uh finalist uh the APAC finalist for uh PMO Global award is actually a very strong applicant um and they have done an amazing job um moving forward um and like maturing their PMO in their business um in terms of the PMO value ring you know the I go back to the main concept and the core of the value ring which is customer so there are a lot of approaches in terms of setting up a PMO I have uh like in one of the uh discussion panel that I was there the question was what is the best um and the must service that the PMO should have and I said like I don't know it really depends on the customer of that PMO and the the facilitator was kind of like do you really know PMO and uh like then they were talking about no schedule management training is the must methodology framework and I was like no guys it is it really depends on and then yes you know when we are talking about the value is really what is matter to that business and what is matter to that customer. Yes um so the first version of the PMR value ring was mainly focusing on um the customer asking the expectations and then translating those expectations into the services and then talking about the when these services you can expect to see the values and then how you can um in terms of the scenarios that you have in your business how these services can address those services. There were some indicators in that PMO value version one which were like a capability indicator adherence indicator expectation indicator adherence indicator which were mainly saying what my customer wants what how much I can make them happy so what is the reality and how much I am able to make them happy and specifically you cannot make everybody keep everybody happy right and how much I am capable of delivering these services and what is the maturity of these services currently in the business and I want to get to um the PMO value ring version two which is now in a PMO practice guide in a simple word is looking at um breaking down those um eight steps from the version one to 10 steps around the customer but is also looking at another three layers outside of the customer connection like the the core of the customer and those 10 steps is actually looking at it's itself as a PMO as an entity looking at what are the PMOs strategy what is the PMO design and what is the PMO governance and then also in the next layer which is the broader layer is looking at the the uh four aspects of the organization of the maturity of the organization culture of the organization structure of the organization so it is trying to embed um all the elements that are um defining that function so I'm going back to your first um uh discussion that you have about the operational role moving from operational Role to the business role is actually looking at to glue all those elements together and then saying, okay, um if in the in the previous version was where about the PMO to identify the reality, is now there are different domains that you can put the reality and then having a factful um kind of like a reliable conversation with your stakeholder. So the new PMO CP is mainly looking at this new wheel, which is still customer is in the middle. Um there are different phases that your customer is going, different steps you're taking through, um, and also what is the structure of the PMO and how this PMO is fitted into that business body.

SPEAKER_00: 1:00:50

So it's interesting because um the way you just described that goes back to your first point, which is the PMO is growing up. It is maybe anymore. I'm seeing my talk growing up, and I'm like, wow, since you'll be in primary school and high school and all those sorts of things. So I agree with you completely on that point. Um, I probably a little bit less than you, but about 20 years now since I first got into the concept of this project space and PMO space, and I've never in my um 20 years seen it as prominent and as important and as purposeful as it is these days. And I think we have to give some um definitely give some credit to um many people, um, Americo, um Joe in the US, um Laura, Laura, the UK team. Um there's so many really exactly so many really strong PMO thought leaders that are not called thought leaders because they've decided to call themselves that, but people like us will reflect um our views and call them that. And they like like ourselves and and many others have done so much tireless work to bring PMO to the to the strategic um table. And so I'm really excited to see what comes of this, um, to see more. I'll share notes about the PMO CP, the certified practitioner um uh certification. Uh we'll share more about um GE PMF as well. And um, I think that people will get a lot of value from looking into those things, particularly as a really good, I guess, benchmark, particularly because of how many people have been involved in the original creation and then obviously the updated version. So thank you for sharing.

SPEAKER_02: 1:02:36

Yeah, you know, Fatima, that's uh my pleasure. But like um the thing is, Fatima, at the moment, among PMO, specifically PMO practitioners, I'm not talking about whoever is a PMO, right?

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:47

Yes.

SPEAKER_02: 1:02:47

I have a lot of conversation with so many people. Okay, what do you do? I am project manager, I'm program manager, I'm a PMO, I do business analysis, I do this. I'm talking about those ones that are like live and breathe like yourself in PMO space. I like you know, I always say that to people like, hey, I don't know anything else, but I know PMO very well. Um we are all responsible to educate the businesses on what a good PMO is. Because um, you know, although we are seeing that the PMOs are getting yes, partner with the business, yes, they are sitting in a strategy, they have a strategy seat, they have a decision-making word, um, but it is going back to that trust that they business trusted them and gave them the stage.

SPEAKER_01: 1:03:39

Yes.

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:40

Um, if you have the best PMO in the world, like Amira and Fatima, and you don't give them a stage and you don't um let them to um speak, nothing is gonna happen. So it's a two-ways work that I like to invite some like a businesses. And then I started that honestly, Fatima. Like now I'm not talking to PMO community anymore. Because I know the PMO community has already a lot of resources um to talk to, to learn from. I'm talking to the people outside of this bubble and telling them, like, guys, these are the things that can be existed and can connect the dots together in your business. So when we get to the point that the business, the business, and then there's the stakeholders, the decision makers are talking about it like that, then this is a success point, you know. If we have that, like if we have a CEO and saying, like, I want to see the PMO manager today to help me to answer this to the board, that PML manager is a gold. Like 100%.

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:50

That's um so such a good um target to aim for. It's probably starting in some places, but more and more recognition is needed, and I think you're right, there's an abundance of things out there for leaders to learn from and those that are up and coming as well to follow in the footsteps of people like yourself because you've done so much for the PMO community. You're prolific online, you've done amazing work with your um retention of your clients, you've done great work voluntarily, mind you, with a lot of the work you do globally, and um it's just uh such a good recognition of that by having the trust of the the global team and PMI to to put the the APAC hub in your hands and it's in a it's in a good place. So um can't wait to see and be part of that and and evolve as it comes in the coming years as well.

SPEAKER_02: 1:05:41

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for your words.

SPEAKER_00: 1:05:44

You're very welcome. Now, um our closing tradition, you've probably already covered it. Our last question, is there anything else you'd like to share with our listeners, a call to action or a piece of advice, or a question to ponder before we wrap up today?

SPEAKER_02: 1:05:58

The only thing is at the end of the word, each single of us is responsible to make this word a better place to live. Um so no matter if you're a PMO, project manager, whoever, by the contributing to make this place a better place. Um just do your best to that's it. So I do my best to end my own strengths. So yeah, let's put hands together and make it work.

SPEAKER_00: 1:06:30

Love it. On that note, thank you. Thanks so much. My pleasure. Thank you so much for listening to this podcast. Please share this with someone or rate it if you enjoyed it. Don't forget to follow us on social media and to stay up to date with all things agile ideas. Go to our website, www.agile managementoffice.com. I hope you've been able to learn, feel, or be inspired today. Until next time, what's your agile idea?