#168 | Intentional Visibility: Building Your Personal Brand for Greater Impact with Carlii Lyon

What happens when the person behind some of the world’s most recognisable personal brands realises she’s neglected her own?

In this deeply honest and inspiring episode, we’re joined by Carlii Lyon—former international publicist turned personal branding expert and author of Courage to Be. After building the profiles of global names like Miranda Kerr and other thought leaders, Carlii found herself feeling invisible during her maternity leave. That moment became the catalyst for a journey of reinvention, purpose, and intentional visibility.

We explore what personal branding really means—beyond LinkedIn profiles and follower counts—and how showing up with clarity, consistency, and purpose can transform your career and impact. Carlii breaks down why self-promotion doesn’t have to feel cringey when it’s connected to service, value, and your future self.

From the power of asking for what you want to the quiet confidence of body language and presence, this conversation offers practical strategies for becoming more visible without becoming performative.

Whether you’re looking to step into a new role, grow your influence, or simply feel more seen for the work you do—this episode will help you start small, but start meaningfully.

Tune in now, and remember: your future self is probably already telling you to go for it.

In this episode, I cover: 

5:38 Calii Lyon’s Journey into Personal Branding

17:19 Understanding Personal Branding

31:54 Overcoming Self-Doubt and Criticism

43:57 The Power of Future Self Psychology

And more...

Check out Carlii's website, and look for her new book here: www.carliilyon.com

Connect with Carlii on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/carliilyon/

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome to Agile Ideas
• 5:38 Carly Lyon's Journey Into Personal Branding
• 17:19 Understanding Personal Brand vs Self-Promotion
• 31:54 Overcoming Self-Doubt and Criticism
• 43:57 The Power of Future Self Psychology

Transcript

Fatimah Abbouchi: 0:00

You're listening to Agile Ideas, the podcast hosted by Fatimah Abbouchi. For anyone listening out there not having a good day, please know there is help out there. Hi everyone and welcome back to another episode of Agile Ideas. I'm CEO, at AMO, mental Health Ambassador and your host. On today's episode we have Carlii Lyon.

Fatimah Abbouchi: 0:28

Carlii Lyon has been shaping the reputations of remarkable individuals from across the globe for over two decades. As a former international personal publicist, her past clients include world-leading supermodel Miranda Kerr, new York Times bestselling authors, inventors, musicians and even a British celebrity foot reader. Today, Carlii is dedicated to helping everyday individuals shape their personal brands confidently, communicate their value proactively, put themselves out there and become intentionally visible to the audiences that matter. Recognized as a thought leader on the topic, Carlii has been invited to speak to the teams of iconic brands internationally, including the likes of the Financial Times, Spotify, Microsoft, virgin and L'Oreal, to name a few. She's a regular contributor to Forbes on the topic of personal branding and has been featured in Smart CEO Magazine, Sky News and the Sunday Telegraph. Please join me in welcoming Carlii to the show. Welcome to the show.

Carlii Lyon: 1:29

Thank you so much. Thank you for having me.

Fatimah Abbouchi: 1:32

Let's start with one of the most important questions Tell us about how you got to where you are today, so people can understand your journey and why you do what you do.

Carlii Lyon: 1:42

So I launched my own PR consultancy at the young age of 21, while I was studying public relations. So I think at that point I'm still a very impatient person, but I was especially impatient at that point and I just wanted to go out and start being in business. So I launched my own PR consultancy. That was international. I always specialized in individual branding. So my clients were always individuals thought leaders, experts, authors, speakers, business leaders, et cetera and I did that for many years and that was an international role. So it was my role as their personal publicist to get their story out into the world and, you know, manage all of their media relations and do all of the wonderful things that a public relations agent does. So I did that for many years and then about I get my timelines a little bit confused but about 10 to 15 years into it I went on extended maternity leave. So I went from this really fast paced international PR existence to being at home with two very busy, beautiful baby boys under the age of two, which was a massive shift and change.

Carlii Lyon: 3:08

And the reason why I'm telling you all of that was that was actually the moment that shaped the next chapter of my journey, because it was when I was on extended maternity leave that I was confronted with the harsh reality that in all of that time telling all of those clients stories and building their personal brands, I'd never done the same for myself. I'd never stopped to think about what was my personal brand, what was I doing to elevate my personal brand? And as a result of that, I was on extended maternity leave, feeling very invisible, because really I had done that to myself. I had never made a point of being out from behind the scenes, so I definitely was invisible.

Carlii Lyon: 3:57

So at that point I thought well, if that's how I'm feeling, then there's a really good chance that other people are feeling the same and perhaps there's something in that I can help them, you know, get, get themselves out there and build a personal brand. So that's what has launched me into the, the world of work that I'm doing now, which is coaching individuals and executives on their personal brand and also, more importantly, going into organizations all over the world and talking about this concept of personal brand and building influence. And I've had the privilege of working with some of the biggest brands all over the world. You know I'm lucky to count companies like the Financial Times, Volvo, l'oreal, as clients of mine, and it's always fascinating to me not surprising, but fascinating that you know I'm working with some of the smartest individuals in the world, working with some of the biggest brands in the world, and they've never thought about their personal brand.

Fatimah Abbouchi: 4:59

So interesting. I want to go back to the first thing you said, which really 21 and started your own business. That's that's to the first thing you said, which really 21 and started your own business. That's that's like the life of an entrepreneur being courageous to take that first risk. How did you know where to start when you decided to make that shift Like for those listening going, I want to start a business. What was the first things that you looked at or considered? How did you decide I?

Carlii Lyon: 5:26

don't, don't really know. I mean, I look back at that time and, of course, there are so many things that I cringe at. You know what I did at that point. I didn't know what I was doing and at 21 I always looked much older than I was, which was great in your 20s, not so great in your 40s, right. But the other thing, Fatimah, that is, I think, important to point out, is I am also a high school dropout.

Carlii Lyon: 5:55

So I left school at 15, spent quite a few years hairdressing, went back to school and finished my HSC, or back to TAFE to finish my HSC. So I was out in the world of work for several years before I then got into college to study PR, and I think that real world experience gave me the confidence to start my own business and gave me the confidence to, you know, put myself out there. I wasn't a student coming straight out of uni and not really knowing how to have conversations or deal with people that were much older than me. So the combination of me looking older than I was plus I had more maturity because of real world experience, combined with my impatience, thinking I can do this better than what my college professors or teachers and how they were presenting themselves. So I just launched myself out there and I remember when I pitched for one of my first clients, they asked me you know, so do you have.

Carlii Lyon: 7:06

Because in PR, and especially at that point in time, it was all about your contacts, it was all about the relationships you had, especially with the media. And they said so, do you have good contacts and good relationships with the media? And I remember sitting there, going absolutely, absolutely Did I. No. However, I was so determined. All I needed was an opportunity and I worked around the clock to make sure I got those contacts and I made sure my client got the the media coverage that I knew that they could. So, yeah, that that was how it happened at that point that's amazing, I think, um, we shouldn't underestimate that.

Fatimah Abbouchi: 7:46

And what was going through my mind as you were saying that is you know the screw it, let's do it. Richard Branson quote, which is exactly what he did, and 100% agree. You typically don't know what you're doing when you're starting off in business, and anyone that says they do, unless they may be taking over a family business, really would be lying. So what an incredible story. I can resonate with you about coming off maternity leave as a mum of a one and a half year old, so congratulations on your boys. But how did you like thinking about that moment where you realised that you hadn't done for yourself what you were doing for clients?

Fatimah Abbouchi: 8:23

It's like the example of the hairdresser who hasn't hasn't done the hair yeah because everybody else's hair amazing yeah when you think about branding in general like for those that are listening that don't really understand that, because I know the comments that I would normally hear is people don't want to put themselves out there because they're not salesy or they don't feel comfortable. Can you just simplify it for us? What is brand and what is personal brand? Why is this so important?

Carlii Lyon: 8:47

So, firstly, going back to that moment where I recognized that I didn't have a personal brand, that to me is very much the situation that a lot of individuals find themselves in because they've made, and not so much now. I mean that was seven years ago and the world in seven years has changed dramatically. I think when people hear the term personal brand, there is the automatic association with social media and the term itself has really become part of the zeitgeist. Like we really know what a personal brand is, we know the purpose of a personal brand and, because we've all had to get more comfortable with social media, we understand what it is. Not to say that there's still not confusion around well, what do I do and how do I do it, and what's the real definition of a personal brand. But back at that point, when I was confronted with the fact that I hadn't done anything around my personal brand, I think I had bought into the idea that, well, you have to reach a certain level in your life and career for you to be qualified as needing to worry about your personal brand. So for a lot of people that means, oh, I'll think about my personal brand when I'm the CEO of a company, or I'll think about my personal brand when and if my role becomes more external and maybe I have to go and do panel events or go on the speaking circuit, or, yes, maybe if I have to get on social media and create some sort of content strategy, that's when I'll think about it.

Carlii Lyon: 10:29

My definition of a personal brand is that it's the way an individual presents and packages themselves for a purpose, and I always say, whether you're visible to one person or 1 million people, ultimately, at the heart of what a personal brand is, it's about being intentional about how you're showing up in that moment, in whatever and on whatever platform that you're showing up. So I don't want people to automatically assume that a personal brand is their LinkedIn profile. Yes, is that an extension of your personal brand? Is that a platform where you communicate your personal brand? Absolutely. But to me, and what I like to talk about, a personal brand is much deeper. It's thinking about intentionally who you want to be, how you want to show up, why you're saying the things you're saying, how you're saying the things you're saying. It's a deeper conversation than just what your LinkedIn profile says about you.

Fatimah Abbouchi: 11:36

And you know it's uncomfortable as well. I'm sure you deal with a lot of clients that probably maybe they have made a significant shift in their career or life and they realize that they, like yourself, at that point, need to focus more on their brand what do you say to people who are not feeling really comfortable with the idea of it or maybe think that it's about self-promotion or what what is the advice you could give those people? So?

Carlii Lyon: 12:03

I would always say everyone is in the business of being themselves. That's just full stop. Everyone's in the business of being themselves. And what I believe personal branding does is it's essentially saying well, it's getting into the business of being good at promoting yourself. Does everyone like the idea of self-promotion? No, but I would say to those people who feel uncomfortable with the idea is, the more you're able to link your visibility and influence to purpose and impact, then the easier it becomes. So what I mean by that is if you can see how becoming visible and building more influence is ultimately going to add value and serve other people, then all of a sudden, not only is your approach going to be different, so it's. You're not standing or coming from a position of you know, how do I get out of this audience? How do I? You know, how do I look really good in front of this audience? You're coming from a place of how do I serve this audience? How can I add value to these people, to this team, to this person? So it's a completely different mindset, it's a completely different energy space, and I would say to those people who feel uncomfortable with the idea of self-promotion to get into that space, to really start to think about well, when you are visible and when you're able to build more influence, what impact is that going to have? And and focus on that, focus on that we need.

Carlii Lyon: 13:38

You know, when I think back to why I got into PR in the first place, at that point in time I was really passionate about and I still am about wellness and personal development, and so a lot of my clients were in and from that space of wellness and personal development and what I was driven to do was to be able to use their stories to change the impact that the media had on the lives of the people that were following the media. And especially when you think back 20 years ago, the media. There were less platforms where we were getting our information, so the impact of those platforms had, you know, a much greater, a much greater impact on our lives. You know, a much greater impact on our lives. You know we'd read the Sunday Telegraph and the story in there. So I always thought, well, if I can use the media in a positive way and I can share positive stories to have a more positive influence, then of course that's what I want to do Now in the world that we live in, when you think about where we get our information and all of the different platforms and people that we are influenced by.

Carlii Lyon: 14:54

I mean to me, now I see myself as being a person out in the world to inspire more individuals to get out there to be positive influencers, because we need that in the world right now. We really need that in the world right now. So that's what I would say to those people who are feeling uncomfortable about it. Yes, I know most people look out for example, I hear it all the time. They look out onto LinkedIn and they go, oh, I just don't want to be that person, I don't want to be seen as that person. And, yes, maybe some of it's noise to you, but, as they say, what's noise to one person is music to another. So just focus on the people that you want to be music to.

Fatimah Abbouchi: 15:41

Basically, that's really well said. I think you hit the nail on the head talking about the value. Like you know, what I would use is value, and I think that the value that people can provide, as opposed to, like you sort of said, it's not. It's not. It's not being cringy and being self-promoting in a way that doesn't drive value. It's actually providing value in a way that doesn't drive value.

Fatimah Abbouchi: 16:04

It's actually providing value. I think something that people often miss, are misguided by, is that you don't want to wait until a point in time where you think you might need so. For example, one of the things that's going through my head is there might be people out there that may come to you and say, look, I don't know where to start. I want to build my brand and maybe they've further progressed in their career. What are the benefits that can come from having time and energy spent towards your as you said, your personal brand?

Carlii Lyon: 16:32

When you're really clear on what you're putting out into the world, then the chances of you attracting things, people, places and opportunities that are going to resonate with who you want to be and what you want in your life are far greater. And you know, I only had this conversation yesterday with an executive who was trying to work out, well, what does this whole personal branding thing mean to her? And she wasn't necessarily interested in creating a robust following on social media or anything like that, and I explained to her that by being really clear and intentional on what her personal brand was. It's not necessarily about doing more, so in that case, not necessarily I'm not going to be telling her to go on LinkedIn and start creating a content strategy or get on the speaking circuit or whatever, but it's about doing the things that you're already doing, but doing them intentionally. So I'll give you an example, and what I shared with her was perhaps by getting clear on her personal brand, how she wanted to position herself and what she wanted to be remembered for in terms of areas of expertise and skills. Perhaps by just being clear on that when she is next in meetings or she has an opportunity to meet a person who actually could be really pivotal in her career or open doors for her, just by being clear on what it is she wants to be remembered. By then that's going to change what she says, how she presents her ideas, because she'll come at it perhaps with an angle that's more aligned to who she wants to be, rather than just whatever comes to mind.

Carlii Lyon: 18:33

And some people would argue oh, Carlii, that just feels like so much effort and you know, so much extra mind share, constantly thinking, and so it feels like it's a performance. Well, I would argue that, yes, maybe in the beginning it feels like a lot of effort to sit down and think about this is who I am and this is how I want to be remembered and these are the things I want to attract and the opportunities I want to, you know, align myself with. And yes, so that's where effort may lie. But I actually believe after that it becomes a bit of plug and play, because you can, you just all will automatically all become habitual to start speaking to who you want to be.

Fatimah Abbouchi: 19:25

And does this tie into something you talk about, which is the power of future self psychology? So, thinking about that, can you explain that, that term, because I think this is relevant to what you just said?

Carlii Lyon: 19:37

I didn't even know that there was an area of psychology like. There actually is an area of psychology called future self psychology and there are a few key pioneers in that space that I follow and I've I've read up on and looked into the research of, and future self psychology essentially is the idea of tapping into the power of your future self and really starting to think about who that person will be. And there's one gentleman in particular, dr Hal Hirschfield, who actually delivered an amazing TED Talk on this and wrote a book on this, and in one of his research studies they got a group of students together and for every student they created a digital avatar and then invited them to go into this virtual reality. And so you see these students. You actually see it as part of his TED Talk, you see these students go into this virtual reality. One half of the students were given a digital avatar that looked like who they were today, so just a weird version of themselves. The other half of the students were given a digital avatar that looked like them, but digitally enhanced in a way that it was them in 40 years time. And so, again, you see them go into this world At the end of their journey into the virtual reality. They were asked a series of questions and in this case, the series of questions were related to financial decision-making. And what they found was that the students that went into the virtual reality and saw themselves in 40 years time and obviously in that moment recognize that the person they're going to be is not the person they are today. It's a completely separate person to them. Their decisions were very different. So they committed to saving 20 to 30% more than the students who saw themselves as who they were today. So by really recognizing that who we're going to be in the future is a totally different person, like him or her are going to live the consequences of our decision today and they're a completely different person. And we can really use that to our advantage.

Carlii Lyon: 22:02

And I always say to people you know, you've got your future self. Imagine using your future self as a mentor in those moments when you're feeling unsure or scared of putting yourself out there. Imagine just taking a moment to sit, close your eyes and think about okay, what would my future self say to me right now, and really see it, whether it's the 90-year-old version of yourself, whether it's the 50-year-old version, whatever feels more real and powerful to you, like, what would he or she say to you? And I've asked that question to countless audience members and I always put them on the spot and I say you know, you've been given this opportunity.

Carlii Lyon: 22:52

You're scared, you're worried, what would your future self say to you? And every single time it's just go for it, just do it, it's going to be okay. And, like it always gives me goosebumps when, when the audience, when you know whoever I've asked says that, because our future selves always say the same things Just go for it, just do it. So there's so many ways that and I encourage everyone listening to do some research around future self psychology because it's fascinating, it's really fascinating.

Fatimah Abbouchi: 23:24

I didn't. I mean, I've spent a lot of time working with psychologists over the years and stuff in the mental health but didn't actually know that that was an area.

Carlii Lyon: 23:32

So I was definitely going to look into that. It's amazing.

Fatimah Abbouchi: 23:35

Yeah, it's fascinating, but I can resonate with something specifically you said. I remember about 10 years ago, early on in my business, I was going to have a conversation with someone that I was absolutely dreading because I had to let them go, and I remember the coach at the time that I was working with asked me to put myself in the situation at the point of doing that difficult conversation and also imagining how it felt afterwards, and it was a conversation that I envisaged so many times exactly as you described, and was able to then do it with a clearer mind.

Carlii Lyon: 24:06

And so I can definitely attest to that.

Fatimah Abbouchi: 24:10

It's a great strategy. I'm going to say what I think a lot of people will say, and so I can definitely attest to that. I'm going to say what I think a lot of people will say and they're going to say. But how do I overcome my self-doubt? How do I deal with the rejection? Or, in my case, you know sometimes you get criticism on your social content or you know you're doing a talk. How do I overcome that? Like? What strategies can I put in place?

Carlii Lyon: 24:33

You know, from my personal perspective and also having watched many clients go from I don't want to do it, I'm too scared to really leaning into it and just going for it. The biggest and most powerful mindset shift you can have is understanding and appreciating and almost expecting you will get criticism, you will get rejection, you all of those things are par for the course. Those things are par for the course and I think the when you really accept that, then you're not surprised by it. So if you're standing in a place of okay, I'm going to do this, I will be criticized, I will get disapproval, I will will. Will You're not then coming from a place of what can I do to make sure I'm not criticised? What can I do to make sure I'm not rejected? Instead, it's yeah, I will 100% get rejected, yeah, I'm going to get rejected. I think that in and of itself can change the game. That in and of itself can change the game.

Carlii Lyon: 25:56

Another mindset shift is and I this was just this came up in a coaching session this morning with a client who admitted that they always like to be the nice person, they want to be the person that's liked by everyone, and I said to them okay. So just looking at the nice version of you, the one that you really, you know, try to show up as so that everyone will like you, do you think that everybody likes that version of you? And they were like. No, and I said so. The version of you that you're trying so desperately to hold on to and to keep emulating because you think that's the version of you that everyone's going to like, even that version of you, not everyone likes.

Carlii Lyon: 26:46

So you know there's no winning when you come from a place of not wanting to be liked by everyone, wanting to be accepted by everyone and wanting to not be rejected by anyone. There's no way you're going to win. So that's my honest feedback. There's no way getting around that and you have to. I always say pick your poison. You either sit in the and remain in the sidelines not doing the things you want to do because you're afraid of all those things, or you get in there like everyone else who's in there and just accept that that's par for the course and you decide which has the greater upside, sitting there in that place of self for the course, and you decide which has the greater upside, sitting there in that place of self-doubt and scared of doing it, versus getting out there knowing that those things are going to come, but actually the upside is so much better than the other option it's the, it's the saying.

Fatimah Abbouchi: 27:46

You know, you're damned if you do, and you're damned if you don't. So might as well have fun doing it.

Carlii Lyon: 27:51

It really is the. It really really is the truth you really are, and I would, the more that you do put yourself out there and the more that you experience it and live through it like it's not as terrible as perhaps you thought it was going to be. It's just, it is what it is. And then you also put it in perspective. So that rejection that I may have got or you may have got for the who at that point, at that person rejected you, you're forgotten already, like you can decide to hold on to it and ruminate over it and make it a really big deal, but the person who's rejected you or the person who's criticized you, they are no longer thinking about you.

Carlii Lyon: 28:41

They're on to the next thing, or they're thinking about themselves 100% and you know they say that.

Fatimah Abbouchi: 28:46

Those that are online criticizing others, you know it's more about them, a reflection on what their life and what they're going through, and you have to have empathy for those people as opposed to you. Know you getting on with things and doing the things that make you happy and living your life and meeting your goals and and building your career and whatever it is that you know you want to do. So I think that I like that. I think it's hard sometimes when you're in the, in the spotlight, even hosting a podcast, for example, um and working in in the space where people will see things that you put on on social.

Fatimah Abbouchi: 29:21

So I think it really resonates that you, just as you said, you just have to accept it will happen, as opposed to avoid it from happening because you're never going to please everyone.

Carlii Lyon: 29:31

You are never going to please everyone, and it will happen, and it's just. It's. Yeah, it's par for the course. It's the the price of entry, it's the price of entry. So if you don't want all of those things, then the.

Fatimah Abbouchi: 29:48

You then decide what, what that price is it's the price, um, of you know, the fear of the unknown or not doing what you want, and then, as you said, looking at yourself in 40 years time and going. I regret not doing this and I regret not doing that because I was, I was scared about you know, some rando giving me some negative feedback or commentary or something that you know have absolutely appearing on your life. So hopefully it drives some, uh, I guess some confidence to just accept it is what it is and just moving and moving forward I am. I know that you've got, um, you've got a book coming out shortly, um, so tell us about why this book and why now and then I've got some questions about some of the content of the book that, um, I can't wait to read perfect.

Carlii Lyon: 30:35

Thank you so much. I'm so excited. Uh, it feels like you've just you've got a year and a half year old baby. So this, um, this book, is my third child and it feels like the birthing process has been two years. So I'm so excited to give birth to this book in September, which, I believe, by the time we we this conversation, is out.

Carlii Lyon: 31:01

So the book is called Courage to Be. The subtitle is Small Steps for a Big Life and it really is just about helping people find the courage to be who they want to be and to put themselves out there. And the way that I've written the book. It's a series of short stories, chapters, and it's broken into three sections of mind, body and brand. And from my perspective as someone who's living and breathing and talking about personal branding, those three areas when you can get those three areas and you work towards having those three areas really aligned to who you want to be, that's where the magic happens.

Carlii Lyon: 31:52

So, mind being, you know. Mindset, being able to influence yourself and your own thinking and actions. Body, really recognizing and understanding and appreciating You've got this amazing vehicle to use to bring your dreams and ideas alive in this physical realm. So using that to the best of your advantage. And then brand understanding that people are not mind readers. And especially today, because of the digital era that we're living in, we've got this real powerful opportunity to tell people who we are and what we want and what we stand for and really open ourselves up to attracting opportunities, and I think by not doing that, you're really leaving so many things on the table.

Fatimah Abbouchi: 32:49

It's really exciting because I think the three things together I can just see them intertwining are so important, and I think we've touched a little bit on mindset. But the part of it that I think really I'm keen to get into a bit more is the body and then brand. But before we do that, what was the most, I guess, surprising thing about this two-year baby grading book journey? Because, as myself and others are probably keen to do that themselves. So is there anything that really surprised you or, I guess, something that really stood out during that journey?

Carlii Lyon: 33:32

two biggest lessons that I learned in the whole process of writing the book, you know, and getting it to the point now where it's nearly ready to to be put out into the world. The first one was how important it is to have a really clear outline. So, before you even consider writing of writing the book, write the proposal, and that's going to force you to really think about who is this book for, why is it different? You know how are you going to present your ideas in a way that's cohesive and compelling and all the rest of it. So taking the time and spending a lot of time on that framework, if you like, first is really powerful. It's going to save you so much time. And then, secondly, my mentor.

Carlii Lyon: 34:22

I started writing the book and I just kept getting blocked, blocked, couldn't like. I just I would write it. Then I didn't. You know it wasn't right. And and my mentor said, just write the book with one person in mind. Imagine that you're writing the book for one person. And the person that I decided to write the book for was my past self. So I wrote the book for the version of me that was on extended maternity leave, feeling lost, invisible, unsure of what the next chapter of her career would look like terrified about putting herself out there. And so I wrote the book with her in mind, and the moment I did that, it just it. Everything started to flow because I knew what she needed, I knew what kind of book would help her, and it was actually really easy to do.

Fatimah Abbouchi: 35:23

After I got into that mind space, how, how, how incredibly beneficial was it for you to um, to take that moment and think about, like you said, an individual and then yourself, because you've gone through this journey, so you now don't want others to have to go through the challenges that you had. So I think it's incredibly, um powerful to think of it that way and therefore go back to what we said earlier you're not trying to appease everyone and you know, everything and everyone which you know means you, please, no one.

Fatimah Abbouchi: 35:53

But yeah, one of the things that, um, I'm curious about is, when you think about, um, the fact that you had to spend the time thinking about your past self and yeah, and getting to the point of of writing where, how and where did you get, I guess, feedback along the way to let you know you're on the right track? Or is that through the coach that you had that was supporting you through the journey?

Carlii Lyon: 36:22

I engaged a book coach, so that was my mentor, who my mentor has been in publishing all his life. He's in his seventies. He was the managing director of a global publishing house, so he had a lot of experience, has a lot of experience. But I did also engage a book coach who also has amazing credibility in the publishing space and she walked me through. So I would send her three or four chapters at a time and she would give her feedback on each of those chapters.

Carlii Lyon: 36:59

And the way that I wrote the book I think was perfect for me. I have a whole new appreciation for people who have an idea and are able to write a whole book about that idea and it be cohesive and logical and amazing. I don't know how they do that, but the way that I wrote the book was in small standalone chapters which made sense together but they didn't flow on from one another. So it's a different writing style. I had a a book coach, then it went to an editor, then it went to a proofreader and so you, there is a whole team involved in getting a book to the stage where it's actually out on shelves. Uh, so yeah, that's how. That's how I did it along the way it's a really exciting.

Fatimah Abbouchi: 37:49

I'll make sure I share a link to the book and I can't wait to get a copy. So I'll stay tuned for that. Tell me. You talk about physical practices in the book, which I've asked. Dan, what's physical practice? Tell me about physical practices.

Carlii Lyon: 38:05

Well, there's lots of different physical practices and we really we underestimate. Well, maybe we don't underestimate, but maybe sometimes we don't pay enough attention to how impactful our body, our physical presence, can be in terms of interact when we interact with others, and also how we can use our physical presence and our body to influence ourselves, and so I share lots of different ideas in that area and how to use your body to, you know, change the way you're thinking and feeling. There's a lady by the name of Dr Amy Cuddy who wrote a book called Presence. I don't know if you're familiar with that. Yes, I've heard of it, yes and she especially talks about how we can use our body language to impact our thoughts and feelings. So there's one part of the book that talks about that. You know, using your body language to impact your thoughts and feelings. There are, you know, how we charisma is part of when we think of someone who's charismatic, and you know how do we use our bodies to be more charismatic the tone of our voice, our eye contact, smiling. You know smiling.

Carlii Lyon: 39:35

All the research around smiling and here's the funny thing about smiling is, as women especially, we've been told, don't smile too much, and I had a conversation with one of the world's leading experts in body language and his advice to women is when you're dealing with men, powerful men or someone in a powerful position, match their smiling their rate of smiling.

Carlii Lyon: 40:01

So if they're smiling, you smile, but don't smile too much. So there's all of this commentary around you know, not smiling too much, but then the research around smiling. You know not smiling too much, but then the research around smiling. You know it's been shown to make you look younger, more attractive, more memorable, Like. There's all these beautiful things about smiling that I think we should be aware of. And when I learned or read about all of the research around smiling, this is just one example of how to use your body to shift your brand and and your personal brand. But when I read about the research around smiling, as children, we smile up to 400 times a day. Guess what the number is, what it drops down to as an adult?

Fatimah Abbouchi: 40:53

I'm sure I've come across this somewhere. Is this like in the 20s?

Carlii Lyon: 40:56

Yes, Like how sad is that it's so sad.

Fatimah Abbouchi: 41:01

It's really sad, it really is, it really is.

Fatimah Abbouchi: 41:05

We're so distracted, we're so busy, we're so overwhelmed, we're so burnt out. You know there's so much going on, like the pressure, the deadlines, the digital noise everything gets drowned out and, like I said, you simply forget the small things like that that can make a big shift to your mood and how you're feeling that day. We get taught a lot about that in the work that Beyond Blue does and their research with mental health. One of the things that I learned through that is like if you act as if you're happy or you know, obviously depending on no serious situation going on for you but if you're anxious and you act as if you're happy, your mind tricks itself into making you feel that you are. And I think if you smile I don't know if the research you came across to this, but if you smile, it might make yourself feel that you're happier and make you happier in the long run.

Carlii Lyon: 42:00

Yeah, so it's amazing, it's amazing.

Fatimah Abbouchi: 42:04

And then I wanted to touch on briefly, you know, go back to the branding side. One of the things that I'm keen to know is, like I myself, like many are all over social media. You're constantly sharing content articles, posts, blogs, whatever but how do you stand out in like a crowded space, like, how do you claim your space from a brand perspective?

Carlii Lyon: 42:28

Yeah, Well, I think it's important to identify what your definition of standing out is and why that's so important, fatima is. I think a lot of people automatically associate vanity metrics to standing out. So their measurement of I'm standing out is I'm getting more followers, I'm getting more likes, and I think that's and especially now that we've entered the age of AI and we're seeing a lot more people creating content on social media, especially because they can, and it's all automated and you know that's a whole other conversation. But it's getting noisier and noisier and the idea of measuring through vanity metrics alone, I think, is not the right path to take. It's about quality over quantity and the measurement should be who am I actually reaching and are they the people that I want to reach?

Carlii Lyon: 43:43

And if you are reaching the people you want to reach, then to me that's a really good sign that you're standing out in the right way. Because a lot of people will say you know how do I stand out? How do I? Well, often they're measuring it by, but I'm not getting more, you know, followers, I'm not getting more likes, so then I'm not standing out. But actually, if we take that away and we look at who are you reaching and what are their perceptions of you. What are they getting from you in terms of if you ask them to relay to you what your message is and what your purpose is, and if they're able to do that clearly and you are standing up?

Fatimah Abbouchi: 44:31

It's a really good point and I think it would also make sense if others are telling people, if those people are telling others about you as well, because obviously something in your message or, yes, scary and all of that.

Fatimah Abbouchi: 44:43

So I think that's a that's a good mission. But I I agree with your point around the vanity metrics, because there's people out there online every day that are, you know, nasty or narcissistic, or you know just putting other people down, that are you know, nasty or narcissistic, or you know just putting other people down, that are getting thousands of followers and likes and comments and on their stuff it doesn't make them, you know, an expert in anything or a good person. So, you're right, it's probably not the right metric and it's interesting how some of the platforms have removed, you know, the likes and things like that. So, yeah, I think that's some good context and I think it's how people remember you and what they remember you for, which I think really would help people to make those connections you talked about, because I used to think branding was all about, you know, just marketing and getting your face out there and all that, but there's so much more to it, as you talked about before that I think you've probably unpacked here for people today.

Carlii Lyon: 45:39

Well, thank you, I hope I have. And look, you know, there's no denying that reach. We want to get out to new potential customers and we want that exposure because that exposure can often lead to opportunity, that exposure, because that exposure can often lead to opportunity. But again, it's just, I don't think it's about being realistic, but it's just being focused. Focused in the right areas for the right reasons. Because if you were to do research around, you know how to create a viral post on LinkedIn or Instagram you will probably find a formula that will automatically increase your engagement and your numbers and all the rest of it.

Carlii Lyon: 46:25

But the question then would be is it sending the message that you want to send? Is it sending it in a way that's truly aligned with who you are and the experience they're going to have when working with you and your company? And are they the right people? You know, just the other week I had a post go crazy on LinkedIn and the reality is it didn't reach all of the right people necessarily. So you know what I mean.

Carlii Lyon: 47:00

It's like that wasn't the metric of success for me. The metric of success is am I getting people reaching out to me that are the right kind of qualified people that I want to work with. That's how you read it, and the only way you're going to get that is by really leaning into your real voice, your real message, your real point of difference. How do you get to the point of getting clear on what that is? Mm-hmm, well, it's. You know. It's time, effort, work, self-reflection, you know, and there's no doubt, working with experts who can help you perhaps articulate and ask you the right questions that are going to unlock the right answers. There's real value in that, but it's it's making sure that whatever you end up putting out into the world feels very aligned to who you are and what you want.

Fatimah Abbouchi: 48:01

And being able to back it up, I guess because there's a lot of content going out there and then you have to interview someone and you ask them about all the things that they've been and they've got no idea Exactly. It happened to me recently. I just thought it a really relevant timing for that one. So so, um, you know, in kind of towards our closing of today, um, how can you, or what's one small step if you know I'm someone listening who's been playing small, waiting for the right moments like what's one small step that you'd recommend I can take if I wanted to improve my presence and my brand?

Carlii Lyon: 48:38

One small step. I would say one small step to take is to ask someone for something. So what I mean by that is ask someone for a favor, ask someone for an introduction. So the ask has to be related to helping you get something that you want in terms of career progression, becoming more visible, like having an opportunity to showcase who you are and your skills. Just ask, make a commitment this week to ask one person for something and if you can get comfortable at asking, pitching, seeking opportunities, that in and of itself is going to create a dramatic shift in your personal brand and your personal brand journey, because at the heart of the results that I'm sure everyone's hoping to get from having a personal brand, from being more visible, at the heart of it is having the courage to ask for what you want.

Fatimah Abbouchi: 49:59

And going back to that lovely title of your book, so very resonating, I can't wait to share it. I've enjoyed. I know it's a little bit different for us in terms of some of the conversations we have on here, so I really thought this would be impactful for those maybe similar to ourselves having a business, or maybe you know myself having a corporate background, and really all of these messages are relevant, whether you're an entrepreneur, whether you are a corporate career ladder climbing person, whether you're, you know, just a stay-at-home mom that's currently thinking about, you know, growing your network and your opportunities as well. Our last question for you today, Carlii, is if there's anything you'd like to share with our listeners, a call to action, a piece of advice or a question to ponder today.

Carlii Lyon: 50:45

Well, I would love given I have been giving, or at least pregnant with, this book idea and this book for so long, I would love them to check out the book. Buy this book for so long. I would love them to to check out the book. Buy the book If it resonates. Uh, you can download a free chapter on my website so you can get a sense of if it is going to resonate and if it is something you want to invest in.

Fatimah Abbouchi: 51:10

But, yeah, I would love as many people as possible to have the courage to be I'll make sure I share your links to your site, to your LinkedIn and to the book in the show notes. Thank you so much for listening to this podcast. Please share this with someone or rate it if you enjoyed it. Don't forget to follow us on social media and to stay up to date with all things Agile ideas, go to our website, www. agilemanagementoffice. com. I hope you've been able to learn, feel or be inspired today. Until next time, what's your Agile Idea?