#163 | The Power of Volunteering in Career Growth with Yasmina Khalifi

What if saying “yes” to an unpaid role could open doors your day job never could?

In this insightful episode, Yasmina Khalifi—telecom engineer, project manager, and author—shares how volunteering became a game-changer in her career. From public speaking at global conferences to co-authoring a book with someone she hadn’t met in person, Yasmina discovered that volunteering offered unexpected professional growth, leadership opportunities, and creative challenges her corporate role didn’t.

We explore:

• How volunteering helps you experiment with new skills in a low-risk environment
• The evolution of project work in a fast-paced, virtual world
• Yasmina’s “My Volunteering Canvas” for finding roles aligned with your passions and goals
• Why volunteering isn’t just a career move—it’s a mindset shift
• Common myths about volunteering (and how to overcome them)

Whether you're navigating a career pivot, looking to grow your leadership capabilities, or simply want to expand your network, this episode is full of practical ideas to help you turn purpose-driven work into long-term career value.

Connect with Yasmina or Mayte on LinkedIn or visit yasminakhalifi.com to learn more about her books The Volunteering Journey to Project Leadership and How To Become a Culturally-Aware Project Manager and her work with global project communities.

Yasmina's Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/yasminakhelifi-pmp-telecom/

Mayte's Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mayte-mata-sivera-pmp/

In this episode, I cover:

3:04 Yasmina’s Journey in Project Management
5:57 Evolution of PM Over 20 Years
10:37 Creating a Book on Volunteering 
17:14 Volunteer as Career Development
22:54 My Volunteering Canvas Framework
31:31 Writing Process and Book Impact
And more…

Have you built a PMO from the ground up—

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome to Agile Ideas
• 3:04 Yasmina's Journey in Project Management
• 5:57 Evolution of PM Over 20 Years
• 10:37 Creating a Book on Volunteering
• 17:14 Volunteering as Career Development
• 22:54 My Volunteering Canvas Framework
• 31:31 Writing Process and Book Impact
• 33:58 Closing Thoughts and Resources

Transcript

Fatimah Abbouchi: 0:00

You're listening to Agile Ideas, the podcast hosted by Fatimah Abbouchi. For anyone listening out there not having a good day, please know there is help out there. Hi everyone and welcome back to another episode of Agile Ideas. I'm CEO, at AMO, mental Health Ambassador and your host. On today's episode we have Yasmina Khelifi, a French telecom engineer and project manager with over 20 years of experience in the telecom industry. Yasmina holds three PMI certifications and is a passionate volunteer and thought leader in this project management space. She's a regular blogger on projectmanagement. com, a correspondent for PM World Journal and has contributed to Harvard Business Review Early Career. She also speaks in webinars and conferences, including the PMO Global Summit. Yasmina is also the author of how to Become a Culturally Aware Project Manager and also the co-author of the Volunteering Journey to Project project leadership, written by herself and my team, mata sivera. She speaks six languages and you can connect with her on her website at yasmina khalifi. com. Please join me in welcoming Yasmina.

Yasmina Khelifi: 1:18

Yasmina, welcome to the show fatima, it's a pleasure to be here.

Fatimah Abbouchi: 1:23

Thank, Thank you. Thank you for joining and being so flexible. I wanted to start by asking you about the six languages you speak. Tell me which languages that is. That's phenomenal.

Yasmina Khelifi: 1:37

Well, thank you for asking, Fatimah. It's not the same level in all languages, in fact, if I am honest. So I began to learn German at school, then English and then Spanish. So German, English, Spanish is quite, I have to say, fluent levels, and I can speak Italian intermediate and Japanese intermediate. Wow, and I am learning Arabic, which is very, very hard, oh, absolutely.

Fatimah Abbouchi: 2:07

So it's a good challenge. That's incredible, even to be a beginner in two languages. I speak two and a half languages, but to speak that many well done, that's, yeah, incredible. So we're not here to talk about that, but I just wanted to get that out there because I'm very impressed by that. So you and I came into, came into knowing each other through the PMO leader community, which you're very, you know a big, a big supporter of and and have done a lot of great things in that community. So tell me a little bit about your background. Tell us what. You've been in this project space for 20 years and you're a telecom engineer. Tell us about your career. Where did it start and how you got to where you are today.

Yasmina Khelifi: 2:51

That's a great question. So I began as a telecom engineer in a big telecommunication firm and after the natural path was to become a project manager. So I became a project manager by accident, because a manager proposed to me to say do you want to become a project manager? I hesitated and after I said yes, why not? And that's how it began, like perhaps many of your listeners and people who are watching this video. And after I moved on different projects, always in international environment, which I love very much, and based on that. That's how it evolved and I'm still working in the same company for more than 20 years.

Fatimah Abbouchi: 3:40

Wow, that's very impressive to have that loyalty and commitment to that one organization. That's great. What have you seen change over the years in project management, through all your experience working not only in the company you're in, but just through your passing of colleagues and trends? And what have you seen in either project or PMO space over the last 20 years?

Yasmina Khelifi: 4:05

Well, the pace of projects? I think it is more and more. It's quicker and quicker, sorry. And there are also a lot of turnover of people. I notice in the teams. You know people that work with different stakeholders. Someone comes and after a few months leaves, so you have to build again the relationship, the trust with that person. And of course it is a lot of virtual projects. But I have to say I have been working in international environments and from the beginning I worked a lot virtually, but now it is more intense. So that is what has changed. And of course there is artificial intelligence that is now coming. We don't use it yet a lot in the projects because of different things linked to security, confidentiality, but it's beginning. In the company it begins to be more important.

Fatimah Abbouchi: 5:03

I think you're right. I think there's going to be some significant wave, like the agile wave that we've all passed. I'm really keen to jump into what is core to our conversation today, and that is around volunteering. So I want you to take us back to where the idea came from, you and your colleague Maiti. Did I pronounce that correctlyy? Yes, I think so. Oh, so you and you and matey decided that you were going to write a book about volunteering. So tell me about how the concept of volunteering and the book came about, because I don't think we talk enough about the importance of volunteering and I think that what you both have achieved in this space in writing the book, is going to help a lot of people. So tell me through what inspired you to write the book and what it's about, and why why volunteering is so important.

Yasmina Khelifi: 5:57

Yes, thank you, Fatimah, and you are also passionate volunteer and thank you for being part of the book as a great testimony. So I love this question because for me it's a bit incredible. I met Mayte through a project management community in 2021. And then I wanted Mayte to be in my podcast. So she was a guest in my podcast because I love her way of being, her passion, her international background, and we talked together and we made a webinar about volunteering and there were a lot of questions and then, based on that, we met after a second webinar in Spanish and, based on that, we said why not writing a book?

Yasmina Khelifi: 6:43

Because both of us Mayte and I come from countries where volunteering is not so important. Probably in Australia, in the United States, in the United Kingdom, volunteering is part of the curriculum at university. In our case Mayte from Spain, me from France it is not part of the background, of the academic background at our times. Perhaps it has changed now. We thought we need to share our knowledge and how much we have learned through volunteering.

Yasmina Khelifi: 7:19

It was a big discovery for us and also a big joy, in fact, to volunteer and to meet new people, because all began through a community of project management with volunteers, you know. So it's how it began. And for me, I think it's really incredible because for both of us and all people in the project management communities, it is obvious to make collaborations, you know, to build projects, to deliver together. But when I talk to my colleagues and many people, they are very surprised. They said writing a book with someone you have never met, because I never met face-to-face Mayte. When I told you in 2021, 2022, and we had the book contract in January 2023. And I didn't meet her until November, it was October 2023 in Atlanta in a project management summit. So you know, it's how it all began.

Fatimah Abbouchi: 8:15

And so you said that you got the idea because of lots of questions coming through for the webinars. What were the most common questions that was being asked about volunteering?

Yasmina Khelifi: 8:27

Well, I think people wanted to know how to begin with. Also, they were surprised of all you can learn for volunteering, because we talked about leadership skills, networking and also experimenting with new things and people. They said, oh, we did not know and also that was surprising for us. Some people were also astonished that it could be done virtually and I know it's abuse, but that's correct that many years ago, when you talked about volunteering, many things happened on site, in fact, through events, and that's very important to have events, of course. But, for example, for me it was also a discovery because I was never interested in volunteering, never Fatimah.

Yasmina Khelifi: 9:14

If you had told me really volunteer, I thought I would have thought why? Volunteering Fatimah, it's a lot of work and, of course, I have to go on site to meet people and I live outside of Paris and many things happen in Paris and for me it was impossible in the evening. Many things happen in the evening also, etc. So and also discovered I could deliver projects, meet people, collaborate online and really having fun. So I think that was also a discovery for people and that's why and the last question was also where to find volunteer opportunities. That was the main questions.

Fatimah Abbouchi: 9:56

It's interesting because you're right. I, like yourself, have volunteered many, many years as long as I can remember. I think that volunteering provides such an incredible learning opportunity. I usually say to people when they are particularly in our industry of project management, they're looking for opportunities to get jobs and then, during that process, as part of them trying to find work, they're looking for opportunities to get jobs and then, during that process, as part of them trying to find work, they may not be able to find it as quickly. So I say, go and volunteer, get work experience in the company that you want to work at which is what I did when I started my career 20 years ago and then that possibly leads to opportunities in those companies. So I think it's a great way, and I honestly didn't.

Fatimah Abbouchi: 10:43

When you and I'm looking for my book, it's looking. So, yeah, when I, when I heard that you both were writing this book, I think I wasn't sure what you were going to include because I wasn't sure how much topics and how many questions you can cover. But if I have a look through, some of the things that really stood out for me is like identifying volunteering goals that align to your career goals. That was one of the ones that really stood out for me, because I think that volunteering you can volunteer almost in any industry, in any capacity remote, in person, etc. But it would make sense to align volunteering to a cause or maybe a role that you're looking for. Did you find through the research, speaking to people, that most of the volunteering started in a place that they were passionate about?

Yasmina Khelifi: 11:37

Yes, of course, volunteering starts with passion. I'd like to get to something also very important. You said, fatima, about volunteering when you do not have work. It's also a way to network, because when you volunteer in project management communities, you may work with Julia and, I don't know, perhaps you collaborate very well with her and Julia will say yes, you know, we are looking for a new project manager in the company and it's how it happened in fact for some people, and I think it's a way also to find a job and, as you said, we can also volunteer in companies to help.

Yasmina Khelifi: 12:19

So, in terms of volunteering goals, I also want to say that when we say that with Mayte, it doesn't mean you have to volunteer to find a job, you have to volunteer to align with your career goals. That is not what we meant, because some people will say, okay, it's going to be very transactional this kind of volunteering. So people are not not at all. For me, we can do both, in fact, to, of course, to have fun and also to try to learn new skills or to improve your skills by volunteering. So that is what we we want to say, and carrier goals, in fact fact for different people we talked about.

Yasmina Khelifi: 13:00

I think sometimes we are not aware of doing it. Sometimes it's by instinct. We think, okay, let's do it. That's why we wanted, also with my team, to formalize this kind of things to try to help people get clarity. Why? Because I noticed, as I told you, not like you, I am a new volunteer, you know, for since 2018, exactly only, and when I began, I did not know what to look for or what to do. I was really completely lost. And when you began to volunteer, also, you got new opportunities. People come to you oh, can you help with this, can you help with this? And I said, yes, why not, why not, why not? And at the end, at that point, it was too much.

Fatimah Abbouchi: 13:47

There were some activities I didn't really enjoy, and that's why we try, by formalizing a bit career goals, to try to find some, to help having some priorities and also to be able also to choose the volunteer roles to really enjoy them I think that's really important and I know you talk like through a lot of case studies and I know that, , it's a really good example actually, where the reason we came to know each other is because you volunteered at the PMO Leader and the only reason I ended up agreeing to be in the book is because I knew you because you volunteered in the PMO Leader. So it's just a good example of how much of a small world it is. I want to touch on something that you mentioned. So one of the things we talked about you said leadership and networking of very important, but I think the experimentation side of volunteering sometimes you'll do things like you just described that you don't enjoy and that's fine, but how will you know if you don't try?

Fatimah Abbouchi: 14:48

So I find like one of the things that I recommended to people when they ask about how they get project management experience, I say go and and find an opportunity, either in the company that you're working in, put your hand up. I remember, for example, I put my hand up to be the chief fire warden of our building. So when the fire alarms got off, I was coordinating all those people and then other instances where I'm volunteering to you know, assist one of the staff members in the warehouse with packing goods or whatever it might be, just to get experience. And then you use that experience on your resume and then that resume continues to build up and then that's how you get more opportunities. What's been your best volunteering experience?

Yasmina Khelifi: 15:35

I fully agree with what you said. For me, really, the discovery another one was experimenting with new things. Fatimah, I always give this example because, once more, it is incredible. I began to volunteer in a social media team at PMI United Arab Emirates chapter and I volunteered to create visuals. And I volunteer to create visuals and if you know me, I'm not an artist. You know I cannot draw at all. In fact, at school I was very bad, really very bad at it and I said why not? It seems to be interesting, as you said, why not trying? And I really enjoyed it and I improved myself, I gained confidence and, for example, last week at work, we at work, in my workplace, we had a project management day and we had to make a big visual, in fact, you know, at the entrance of the building, and I designed it. In fact, of course, I'm not designing a lot, I'm using a software, you know, a big software very well known, but still I was very proud of myself.

Yasmina Khelifi: 16:46

So, volunteering, for me, it is a way to experiment with new things and the advantage is, of course, it doesn't mean you try one week and you say no, not interesting, I go. It's another risk also Sometimes when you are in your volunteering space, you have to commit also because if you say yes one week, I'm sorry, no interest, I have to leave now. For me, you know, the issue is you work in teams and if you do not commit then other members of the team are going to be overloaded. It can happen, of course. A lot of things can happen in life. I don't say you have to commit absolutely with your blood to do it, that's not it. But it's a way, when you volunteer, to have the opportunity to try things you don't have the opportunity to try at work. You know, at work, if I said, ok, I'd like to design as a communication team, ok, I'm happy, I'd like to design the display, your next visual they are going to laugh because it's not a part of my expertise. There are people who are experts in that field.

Yasmina Khelifi: 17:43

Yes, also, as you said, talking and other things I did for volunteering and I dared to do was talking in webinars. Talking in webinars, talking at events, it's something at work. We have not a lot of opportunities to do this kind of things. Webinars we have more than before, but talking at big events not really, because it's really. I'm not a top manager and three top managers who speak there. So this is a kind of experience, experiences you can get and, as you said, it's something you can add up to your resume and also for your personal confidence, because, as a project leader, we are supposed to communicate well, we are supposed to present. You know public speaking. When you say that, people will say, no, public speaking is not really my business. I'm a technical project manager, but at a certain point you have to present in front of a board, yeah, and you have also to present well. So there are a lot of skills like this that, from my point of view, have learned through volunteering.

Fatimah Abbouchi: 18:48

It's really important one thing to call out that relates to when people volunteer. It's, of course they're giving up their time and their energy and all of that. But one thing I want everyone listening to know is just because you're a volunteer, it doesn't mean you cut corners. It means that you, you do what you're going to say. You say what you're going to do, do what you're going to say, because your reputation is still on the line. So I think it's just really important for those that are listening that maybe are interested in volunteering, like you. You said, don't just give up after a week. If you commit to do something, give it your time and attention and energy, because just because you're not getting paid for it, if you're committing to a team or a company or a cause, you have to put the time and energy and dedication into it, because otherwise it's still your reputation on the line. So I think that's important to call out because I think people can be, you know, dipping their toes in a little bit and really not committing.

Fatimah Abbouchi: 19:43

But I wanted to touch on something very important. You just said the skills that you learn, the confidence that you build. You're absolutely right. I agree with that 100%. I wanted to be a better speaker so I volunteered with our biggest mental health not-for-profit, beyond Blue, here in Australia, very well recognised, and so I volunteered to speak with them and over time I think 50, 60, 70 events later I got better than when I started and so, very similar to you like getting the confidence. I think, with this new era of ways of working and the environment and the AI and the tech and the soft skills that project managers need to have is not replaceable by AI, so that's where we should focus. Yeah, I agree with you, completely, completely agree.

Yasmina Khelifi: 20:35

I agree, and also something you said very important, Fatimah, is how we can learn as project professionals. You know, in the past I'm an engineer, so you know it was a lot of theory, a lot of books, and I learned. At the time we didn't have a lot of Internet, you know, mobile devices etc. And so the knowledge came from the professors. And what I also discovered through volunteering is how I can learn by practicing, by trying, by making mistakes and by being encouraged by the team, because when I said I design visuals, I was not alone to do it. I got very good feedback from the team, I got encouragement, and it's also changed my way on how we can learn nowadays, and I think we can learn through practicing, through communities and by talking with people, by listening to your podcast. There are a lot of ways of learning. It's not only books.

Fatimah Abbouchi: 21:49

There are a lot of ways of learning. It's not only books, still very important Academics, universities very important, but we need to be very open to different ways of talking about it. I agree, I think a lot of training and educational things out there that are based on theory need to also say even with our university partnership. So we've got an intern from Denmark starting soon, so she's going to be coming to Australia and working with us because she's learned all the theory of project management, but now it's the time for her to actually put it into practice. So she can do that through an internship, which is equivalent to, you know, like some volunteering, and so doing that means she's going to learn those skills which are essential for her future career. Without that, she'll probably get there, but it will just take longer. So I think that that's really important for people to, you know, to really emphasize on learning, for people to really emphasize on learning. I wanted to ask about your. You have a my Volunteering Canvas. What is it?

Yasmina Khelifi: 22:47

And how can listeners use it in their own journey? Yes, exactly, maite and I designed a framework, my volunteering canvas. The aim of this framework is to help volunteers to find their opportunities they want to be. It's also a kind of. We recommend to use it one canvas by role, so that you can design. You can also from the beginning.

Yasmina Khelifi: 23:12

At the beginning, when you look for a volunteer role, you have to know your values, to be clear on your values, your passion, your purpose, and also to be clear what skills you want to learn, how do you want to network and if you want to experiment with new things. And we have also some questions around the criteria for the volunteer role. And it gets back to what we said when you volunteer. I think it's when we said commitment. It's also good to be honest from the start. I think from the criteria, I can say to you Fatimah, you know, Fatimah, I'd like to volunteer in your organization, but I will have six months. After six months I will not be available anymore. So for me it's fine to say that because at least you can propose and you can propose me, give me a volunteer role that fits with that commitment, and then we agree together. Is the role also hybrid, face to face or only virtual. It's something you have to be clear from the beginning. So this kind of canvas, you have some questions and the volunteers can answer and get clarity. And when you are in your volunteer journey, we encourage people feeling also taking the volunteering, my volunteering canvas regularly and also check what they learned, kind of learnings.

Yasmina Khelifi: 24:29

We have a last part learnings, and I think it's important to capitalize and to think because, as we said, the world is very quick.

Yasmina Khelifi: 24:38

We are learning a lot of things without being aware of it and we need it's hard to say it, but we need to take some minutes during the week to say what did I learn this week at work and in all the other activities I am doing outside of work and in all the other activities I am doing outside of work.

Yasmina Khelifi: 24:56

And it is also a way to capitalize on the different things because you know it comes also from personal experiences. I am not very good at interviews and I remember a few years ago when I wanted to change positions, I presented how I presented myself. The interviewer, the guy, let's call it Mike asked me so what did you do in that project? Well, I did small things. I coordinated the testers, the development software teams. Really, I didn't prepare well the interviews because I didn't capitalize on all the stories, all the learnings I had. Of course you can say just prepare properly your interviews, but I think, doing it every week it is also a way to remember what you learned and after, at a certain point, you have so many stories to share and tell for your next role, your next job.

Fatimah Abbouchi: 25:51

I think it's true because, if you think about it, a lot of these people, without having something to guide them, they're probably going to bounce around. I mean, it's good to try lots of different things, but if you have a goal that you're trying to achieve, whether it's a business or your career, it's good to work towards that and get experience. Like, really, one of the biggest gaps for a lot of people is when they want to get into a certain industry. And so, for example, I know someone who wants to get into the energy industry, the environmental energy industry. She doesn't have the experience and they're probably not going to hire her, even though she's got a great product background. But what she can do is do some volunteering and over time she will build up knowledge and skills that become invaluable for her when she goes and applies for a job. So I think I think that makes sense.

Fatimah Abbouchi: 26:41

I think also, the other thing is knowledge, skills and connections. So I think if you're not getting knowledge, you're not getting skills or you're not getting connections in your volunteering role, it's time to move on. Would you agree with that?

Yasmina Khelifi: 26:53

Yes, I agree, after Fatimah, it's always what I say. It's up to people. There are some people they volunteer for more than 20, 30 years and perhaps they are not really interested in expanding their network because they volunteer always with the same people. They enjoy volunteering always with the same people and I think it's great. It's their freedom to do it. What I want also to say to volunteers we also, with Mayte, wrote it in the book we said it's also good sometimes to intentionally say I want to volunteer with people I don't know at all, because it's always very comfortable. If I volunteer with Mayte, I am so happy to volunteer with her, to volunteer with you, fatima. But it's good also to say let's try to volunteer to be part of a new project with people I do not know, because it's a way to confronting new situations and to work with diverse people. In fact, because sometimes, for instance for me at work, I'm very comfortable because I work with the same people for a long time In fact. And also I think volunteering also brings me the opportunity to meet quickly new people and most of the time I never meet them face to face so quickly. You have to do something with someone you don't really know very well, you don't really meet, but still you have to deliver and because of this collaboration, the trust you are building, at the end you are going to deliver a great project. So it really depends. The volunteering canvas my volunteering canvas, as you said, is a way to get clarity on where you want to go and it was also a way for me, for example, to know exactly when I have to say no to a volunteer opportunity.

Yasmina Khelifi: 28:36

Because, as I said, in the volunteering space there are not a lot of people and sometimes you do it well and people come to you. This is a passion. Can you help? Can you help? And I said yes, yes, yes, yes. And as I told you at the beginning, there are some volunteer roles I was not really interested in. But I said, why not doing it? Oh, I have to say also because it was a big title. You know, it was like a project manager of a conference. Why not, why not? But after I didn't really enjoy it because of the organization it was done, because also some volunteers to work with, et cetera. And also it's a thing when you volunteer, you do not volunteer for the big title. You can do it, but you have to be passionate about it also Because, as we said, it's a lot of work and a lot of time and people. They are waiting for the results at the end.

Fatimah Abbouchi: 29:27

Yeah, 100%, you're right. I mean it's okay sometimes if you pick a volunteering job because of the title. The volunteering is something that people do because obviously they have the title. Or you know the volunteering is something that people do because obviously they have the desire or the passion or the time and so they've got to get some benefit from doing it. You know you're doing it for a good cause usually, but you do get the benefit of the knowledge, the skills, the reputation, the connections, you know those things. So I think it's okay for volunteers to you know, receive some benefit.

Fatimah Abbouchi: 29:58

Otherwise, you know, no one would volunteer really if there wasn't some sort of that, even if the benefit is more friends or you know connections or any of those things. So I think that's all really positive. What's been the feedback you've gotten since you wrote the book? Because, as I said, I hadn't come across something that talks about this subject in this much detail and it's really well written and you have lots of case studies now and a lot of people have contributed, myself included, who have contributed to you, support your chapter. So what's the biggest feedback you've been getting from the book?

Yasmina Khelifi: 30:31

Well, usually people are very happy, surprised by the topic, how it was, and thank you very much for your great feedback about the writing. It was a lot of work. It's also something I wasn't aware. We were not aware with Mayte that writing a book is a real project and, as always, you have to know what quality you want to reach. And in our side you know we work also very much in an agile way Because the way we did it, we first did the table of contents and we shared with different colleagues and friends to get their feedback.

Yasmina Khelifi: 31:04

After we decided we divided the different chapters. And what is important and why I love working collaborating with Mayte is we both have a high critical mind, and this one probably. I have to say it's cultural also, in fact, French and Spanish. We have a lot of negative feedback, but in that case it's very good because I wrote something and Mayte asked a lot of questions that I do not agree and I did the same also with her.

Yasmina Khelifi: 31:31

And after we have the book chapters read by beta readers we call it beta readers, it means people who get feedback, et cetera and after we had also an excellent copy editor helping in reviewing. So it depends on the quality you want to have and you're right, we try to have diverse, really diverse people in terms of interviews thought leaders, like you and, because it was not so easy, and from different organizations project organizations also around the world. So it was a lot of work and we also made surveys surveys to board members, surveys to volunteers, surveys to human resource managers to get real data and to have the book backed on research. So it was really a lot of work. You know, when I heard people saying I've written a book, now I know how much time and dedication and passion it needs to be written.

Fatimah Abbouchi: 32:26

Well, thank you for writing it because, as I said, I think it's a really, really interesting book. The content of it is very practical. So I think people who maybe, maybe those that haven't volunteered or those that, like us, volunteer and probably could brush up on some of these insights, I think, can really benefit from learning about it. As I said, I thought it was an interesting concept, which is why I wanted us to meet and have a chat today. I think you guys have done a wonderful job in getting it to where it is.

Fatimah Abbouchi: 32:57

There's so much work that goes into this and people, I think, underestimate it, and you're right, it's a true project. So you've now got a project, another project on your record of projects to add to because of the work that's gone in there. So thank you for doing that. We're nearly at the end of our time today. My last question for you our closing tradition is to ask if there is anything else that you'd like to share with our listeners, a call to action, a piece of advice or a question to ponder before we wrap up today by volunteering, by helping.

Yasmina Khelifi: 33:28

I think it's a wonderful place. You can meet really interesting people around the world and you can learn a lot. Learn a lot about yourself and you can become a better project leader.

Fatimah Abbouchi: 33:47

And where would be the best place for people to find volunteer opportunities. What was the best? One or two places do you recommend?

Yasmina Khelifi: 33:58

For me there is a PMO leader, so it's a really a great community. There is also a conference to come every year. There is an annual conference and you can help be part of the core team, also be a volunteer to be a speaker there, and there are there are a lot of project management organizations, project management institutes. There is also IPMA and depending on the countries it can be strong or not. So I'm sure near you you have a volunteer community project management community you can volunteer in.

Fatimah Abbouchi: 34:29

Yeah, absolutely so. The PMO Leader is the pmoleader. com for anyone listening. We do have a conference coming up, actually very soon you're right in October and the volunteer and speaking opportunities are open. So thank you for sharing that. And I think PMI is probably a really good place because they are the biggest project management organisation and so they have chapters in so many countries and they are run by volunteers, so PMI's website would be another good place as well, so I think that's really good advice. Well, Yasmina, thank you so much for your time today. I look forward to people accessing your book. I'll make sure they connect with you. Where's the best place to find you? Is it LinkedIn or website?

Yasmina Khelifi: 35:10

It's LinkedIn and also Mayte is very active on LinkedIn. So for both of us, you can connect with us on LinkedIn and we have also a website for the book and my website, but LinkedIn is a primary source of contact for me.

Fatimah Abbouchi: 35:22

Okay, amazing.

Fatimah Abbouchi: 35:24

Well, thank you, it's been a pleasure. Have a good day.

Yasmina Khelifi: 35:27

Thank you so much, Fatimah. It was a pleasure to talk with you.

Fatimah Abbouchi: 35:31

Thank you so much for listening to this podcast. Please share this with someone or rate it if you enjoyed it. Don't forget to follow us on social media and to stay up to date with all things Agile Ideas, go to our website, www. agilemanagementoffice. com. I hope you've been able to learn, feel or be inspired today. Until next time, what's your Agile Idea?